2 witnesses

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    • #82586
      Taureauchien
      Participant

      Does the bible say that the 2 witnesses do not appear until at least the start of the trib?

      Or could they show up just prior? ….. like as in our week warning before God shuts the ark door

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    • #82601
      Taureauchien
      Participant

      Anyone?

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    • #82603
      AmyVG
      Participant

      I believe they show up right before the middle of the Tribulation.  I explain why in my commentary on Revelation 11:

      http://trackingbibleprophecy.org/revelation11A.php#3-6

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    • #82632
      Taureauchien
      Participant

      Interesting. I always thought they did first half and the 144000 did act 2.

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    • #82633
      MyWhiteStone
      Participant

      I recalled a book by Heather Rivard, (who posts here occasionally), entitled In the Spotlight: Volume 1 — Departure Desolation Delusion, and found the chapter entitled “Revealed in His Time.”  Here is that chapter repeated, but for brevity here not repeating the Bible text but references instead.

      This is taken from down a few paragraphs here, and just because some don’t like wading. :negative:   “…our only other option is to accept that the ascension of the beast does not occur until the two witnesses will have finished their testimony. This activity will occur near the midpoint of the Week, and specifically during Trumpet 6. …”

      QUOTE

      Lest one find it difficult to wrap their minds around some or all the ideas presented so far, the next set of verses from II Thessalonians 2 will substantiate them. While the following verses are often related to the rapture of the church, we will quickly find out they should not be. Rather, they relate to the same two events Paul already wrote about: the falling away and the revelation of the man of sin.

      (2 Thessalonians 2:6)

      From previous verses in the chapter, we have already learned the revelation of the man of sin is the Abomination of Desolation. We have also learned the wrath of God will be poured upon the desolate (desolator), or as verse 8 calls him, “that Wicked”. While we are heaping names upon him, we should probably not forget that verse 4 also calls him the son of perdition. That title is important in understanding the timing of the verses above. We find the same reference in Revelation 17.

      (Revelation 17:1-3, Revelation 17:7-8)

      These verses relate to Revelation 13.

      (Revelation 13:1-7)

      II Thessalonians 2’s son of perdition is Revelation 13 and 17’s beast. Even if we hadn’t already been told the revelation of the man of sin/son of perdition was defined as the Abomination of Desolation, we would still be able to link the revelation of the son of perdition/beast to the midpoint of the Week. ​There are several theories about the events of the midpoint of the Week regarding the deadly head wound and a false resurrection and a spirit inhabiting the body of the Antichrist. While we cannot say for sure exactly what will occur, we know something will occur to change the status quo. The first time we are introduced to the Antichrist as the beast is in Revelation 11 where the beast is seen ascending out of the bottomless pit and killing the two witnesses.

      (Revelation 11:1-7)

      How do we know the beast will not ascend out of the bottomless pit earlier? That he isn’t just waiting for the days of the witnesses to expire before he acts? Because we are told he doesn’t ascend until after their testimony has been finished. If another time was intended, the language could have been written much more vaguely. It could have said the beast “will ascend”, leaving it relevant to some point in the future but not limiting it to that specific point in time. However, “ascendeth” is written in the “present active participle – nominative singular neuter”[35] verb tense. In fact, the only occurrences of the Greek word “anabainon”[36] (ascendeth) are found in Revelation 11 and 13 relating to the beast coming up out of the bottomless pit, otherwise known as the sea. Why is the language important?

      (The present active participle, like all present participles, is derived only from imperfective verbs, since it refers to an action that is currently taking place or which takes place repeatedly.[37])

      We can eliminate the ascension of the beast from the bottomless pit as a repeated event. Thus, our only other option is to accept that the ascension of the beast does not occur until the two witnesses will have finished their testimony. This activity will occur near the midpoint of the Week, and specifically during Trumpet 6. It is for this reason we are told in Revelation 13 the beast will be given power to “continue” forty and two months, otherwise known as the second half of Daniel’s 70th Week. If he is “continuing”, it means he has ascended and been given power prior to that point. He simply will not yet have been revealed via the Abomination of Desolation.

      Why would the beast wait to commit the Abomination of Desolation until a few days later? Why wouldn’t he just commit it after he overcomes and kills the two witnesses? Because his Abomination of Desolation is reactionary.

      While Daniel 9:27 tells us the midpoint of the Week is characterized by the cessation of sacrifices and offerings as well as by the overspreading of abominations, Revelation shows us the midpoint of the Week is also characterized by the events of Trumpet 7.

      (Revelation 10:7)

      What is the mystery of God?

      (1 Timothy 3:16)

      How will it be finished at the midpoint of the Week?

      (Ephesians 3:9, Revelation 14:6-7)

      There will even be a great wonder placed in the heavens detailing all parts of the mystery of God and its revelation. Compare the following to I Timothy 3:16 and Revelation 14:6-7.

      (Revelation 12:1-4)

      What does this have to do with the Abomination of Desolation being reactionary? It’s the inference made by Jesus in Matthew 24 as well as by John in Revelation 12, for the flight of the remnant is shown immediately after the great wonder appears in heaven.

      (Revelation 12:6)

      When is the remnant told to flee?

      (Matthew 24:15-22)

      What does Matthew 24 say will immediately precede this flight?

      (Matthew3 24:14)

      Thus, we can infer the Abomination of Desolation is reactionary to the angel of Revelation 14’s finishing of the mystery of God. That mystery is finished when the angel reveals to the world its need to fear and worship God. So, of course, what does the beast do? He seeks the fear and worship for himself.

      (2 Thessalonians 2:4)

      This is the meaning of the son of perdition/desolator/man of sin/beast being revealed “in his time”.

      (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8)

      At this point, knowing the revelation of the man of sin occurs at the midpoint of the Week, we can also determine what is restraining him. Since many people equate the above verses to the rapture, they would say the Holy Spirit-indwelled church is restraining the Antichrist. However, since the rapture will have occurred 3.5 years prior to this point, that cannot be the case. What did Daniel 9:27 tell us will occur at the midpoint of the Week?

      (Daniel 9:27)

      II Thessalonians 2:7 tells us the mystery of iniquity, or lawlessness, is already at work. A mystery is something that has not yet been revealed. However, this lawlessness will no longer be a mystery when the man of sin (lawlessness) is revealed. What is the opposite of being lawless? Well, being lawful, of course. In Romans 7, Paul says the following:

      (Romans 7:7)

      Simply put, lawlessness is only defined by what the law says is wrong to do. In this case, lawlessness is revealed by the departure from the law – the cessation of the sacrifices and oblations – and by the Antichrist’s direct violation of the law – the proclamation of being above all that is called God. But doesn’t II Thessalonians 2:7 say that a “he” is restraining? Not exactly. Here is what the verse translates to from the original Greek.

      [The indeed mystery now operating this iniquity only the restraining at present until out of the midst he might come.]

      When people refer to the “restrainer” as a he, it is because the verb​“restrain”, or “katecho” in Greek, has a masculine gender.[48] It is, however, a verb, not a noun. This means it is a reference to the action and not to the person or thing performing the action. We should note, however, the noun “law”, or “nomos”[49] in Greek, also has a masculine gender. The Holy Spirit will not be restraining the Antichrist’s lawlessness. The presence of the Mosaic law will be. Just as the word “let” actually means “restrain”, the words “taken out of the way” also mean the opposite of how they sound. The Greek word “genētai” truly means “to come into being or to physically manifest”.[50] Thus, the verse should read that the mystery of lawlessness is being restrained until the physical revelation of the man of lawlessness. It is at that point lawlessness will no longer be hidden. Seems pretty simple, huh? If it really is that simple and the Antichrist’s breaking of the law at the midpoint of the Week will alert the world to his presence and person, why won’t more people understand what is going on and stand against him? The next verses in II Thessalonians 2 answer that for us.

      UNQUOTE

       

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    • #82639
      Tammie
      Participant

      My two cents

      Daniel 9:27 – after the abomination of desolation; After the seven trumpets

      Revelation 11:2, tells us that the nations of the world will be allowed to trample the holy city for forty-two months.

      Zechariah 14:2 also prophesied that this would occur.

      God says: “And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth” (Revelation 11:3). :unsure:

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    • #82640
      Geri9
      Participant

      Malachi 4:5

      Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

       

      I just assumed this means Elijah and Moses will start their ministry the first 3 1/2 years before the 2nd half starts to get REALLY bad. :unsure:

      The thing is don’t they get killed right before the AC goes into the temple to defile it?  If that is the case … then their ministry hast to happen the first half …

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    • #82647
      Geri9
      Participant

      Here is another interesting verse

      Matthew 17:11

      Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things.

       

      Per … J. Dwight Pentecost … “the entire Levitical system, which suggests that Israel will have restored that system in the first half of the 70th week.”  Antichrist will replace the legitimate, God-honoring Jewish worship system, which only the two witnesses can inaugurate, with his own system, namely, the abominationof desolation.  But the Antichrist cannot do this until the 1,260 days of ministry allotted by God to the two witnesses has been completed.

      Putting the two witnesses into the last half of the Week compromises the totality of Antichrist’s dominion during that same period. How can he bring fire from heaven upon his enemies (through the False Prophet, Rev. 13:13)if the two witnesses are simultaneously bringing fire from heaven upon their enemies (Rev. 11:5)? We are clearly dealing with two different time periods: the first half of the Week with the over whelming power of the two witnesses, and the last half of the Week with the over whelming power of the Beast and the False Prophet. When the world asks the rhetorical question, “Who is able to make war with [the Beast]?” (Rev. 13:4), it seems obvious that no one can answer, “The two witnesses are able to make war with him,” for their 1,260 days of ministry will have ended, and they will be gone.

      Immediately following the rapture of the church, there will be no believers left on this planet. Assuming that God never leaves Himself without a witness in the world, the two witnesses will suddenly appear in Jerusalem to begin their powerful work. In the words of Alva J.McClain, founder and president of Grace Theological Seminary, “The effect of their testimony is very impressive, appearing very early in the book of Revelation and probably accounting for the martyrs seen under the fifth seal (6:9). In chapter 7 the effect greatly expands, including 144,000 Israelites (vs.3-8), and also a great multitude, which no man can number, of all nations” (vs. 9-14).  His colleague and successor, Herman A. Hoyt, agreed that “The importance of their testimony cannot be overestimated (Rev. 11:4)By their testimony, it is my opinion, they bring about the conversion of the 144,000 who will become the witnesses during the final half of the tribulation period.“In addition to my personal mentors, Alva J. McClain and Herman A. Hoyt, several others have concluded that the two witnesses will proclaim the gospel of the Kingdom (i.e., the true Gospel of the saving work of Christ as a pre requisite for entering the Kingdom) during the first half of the 70th week.

      – Fair Use –

       

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    • #82652
      Arthur
      Participant

      Yes, I believe the first half makes the most sense. For 1,260 days they will witness and then they will be murdered and then subsequently resurrected by God in front of the whole world.

      I think with the massive earthquake in the second half of the Tribulation (Think 12.0) that the communication systems worldwide would be knocked offline. Therefore, the whole world couldn’t see the death and the resurrection of the two witnesses.

      I think it also one last chance for an unbelieving world before it is plunged into the Great Tribulation.

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    • #82661
      AmyVG
      Participant

      Tammie pointed out how the timeline is laid out at the beginning of the chapter. The 1,260 days of the two witnesses’ testimony is the same period as the 42 months. And if you pull back further, you will see that chapters 11-14 are all interludes of the same period of time that covers the last half of the Tribulation.

      The most often cited reason for placing the two witnesses’ testimony in the first half is usually due to a misinterpretation of the phrase: “the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit.” In the Greek, the phrase “that ascends” is an active participle, which means it is a continuing action or a verb used as a noun. Since the beast doesn’t continually rise out of the pit it makes more sense as a title and not a continuing action. Another example of a present active participle verb used as a noun is in the following passage:

      John 6:33 – For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.

      Jesus had already come down from Heaven, but He describes Himself as the “bread…who comes down.” Likewise, John calls the beast the one “that ascends out of the bottomless pit,” which describes who the beast is; it is not a verb that describes an action at a point-in-time.

      Now, think about this logically. Why would God unleash 2/3 of the judgments on the earth in the first half of the Tribulation? And if He did, how would it be possible for any life to be left if all the drinking water on the earth was turned to blood shortly after the middle of the Tribulation? How could anyone survive another few years without water? If the two witnesses’ ministry is in the second half then the Bowl judgments will be poured out in the final days of the Tribulation, and people can live days without water, but not years. I explain a lot more reasons in detail why this timeline fits the best in my commentary here: http://trackingbibleprophecy.org/revelation11A.php#3-6

      I also discuss the typology, where the notable antichrist and false prophet types in Scripture all had prophets or servants of God that opposed them:

      Pharaoh and his magicians against Moses and Aaron (Exodus 7-9)

      Abimelech against Jotham (Judges 9)

      Saul against Samuel (1 Samuel 9-19, 28)

      Goliath against David (1 Samuel 17)

      Ahab and the prophets of Baal against Elijah (1 Kings 17-21)

      Ahab and false prophets against Micaiah (2 Chronicles 18)

      King Zedekiah and the false prophet Hananiah against Jeremiah (2 Chronicles 36, Jeremiah 28)

      False prophets against Ezekiel (Ezekiel 13)

      Nebuchadnezzar and his magicians against Daniel (Daniel 1-4)

      Haman against Mordecai (Esther 1-10)

      Herod against John the Baptist (Matthew 14, Mark 6, Luke 9)

      This is not about restraining the beast… it is a showdown between the power of the enemy and the power of God. Incidentally, the Trumpet judgments parallel many of the plagues of Egypt, as I discuss in my commentary of Revelation 11:6 here: http://trackingbibleprophecy.org/revelation11A.php#6

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