February 12, 2020 at 7:58 pm #10622
Joel Jospeh teaches from a Hebrew perspective, similar to Amir.
His edition 508 was released yesterday, my daughter just updated me on it. You might find it enlightening.
Im still praying for a bit earlier than FOT, which can happen at any moment, but FOT falls at the end of the season of the Bride, so still fits with tradition as described by Christ.
what say you all?
February 12, 2020 at 8:33 pm #10623ArthurParticipant
Thank you for the article. :)
Rosh Hashanah (Feast of Trumpets)
This is one of the seven feasts of the Lord, which plot the course of world history, Israel and the church, and into the Millennium in their prophetic parallels. The first five have been fulfilled. The remaining three will be fulfilled in the same manner, which is literal.
Rosh Hashanah is the next in line to be fulfilled. (The Feast of Pentecost, the start of the church age was the last one.)
IMVHO, Pentecost/Shavuot has only been half fulfilled. I believe that the start of the Church Age started on Pentecost and will end on Pentecost.
However, any day is fine as His plan and will is perfect.
February 12, 2020 at 9:08 pm #10624
Yes, good article Tammie, thanks for sharing!
For years I thought the rapture would be on FOT but just a few years ago when I heard J.R. Church and Gary Stearman give the case for the Pentecost theory … that it will end the church age … it got me started to look in anticipation each year to that feast as well. I think its a toss up between both those feasts. With that said … I’m hoping though we are out of here either April 1st, April 12th (Easter), May 31st (Pentecost) or is it the June Pentecost date? Then perhaps late this summer the Middle East wars will unfold and perhaps by FOT it will be AC confirming Trump’s Deal of the Century and the tribulation begins?
I’m just staying encouraged that anytime in 2020 could be it … because of these facts:
The ayatollah of Iran could be removed from power soon and the rightful crown prince of Iran reinstated – this will give Israel a false sense of security.
The president of Sudan all of a sudden wants to be friendly with Israel – another false sense of security.
Putin warned Israel to stay out of the air space in Syria or there will be war.
Turkey has its navy/troops stationed near or in Libya.
Tension continues to build between Egypt and Ethiopia for the drinking water at the Tower of Syene Dam.
Abbas is the only one standing in the way of Trump’s Deal of the Century because the UN General Council has embraced it. So I see Abbas’ days are numbered if he continues to reject it. They could replace him?
As J.D. says “the tension on the rubber ban can only be stretched so far” … looks to be close to breaking point.
February 12, 2020 at 9:33 pm #10625
I totally get Joel’s rationale and I understand that FOT is the next feast to be fulfilled per Israel and the beginning of God dealing with Israel, it is al-Sissi significant to the end of the harvest season and first fruits. I’ve also heard Gary’s theory on a Pentecost rapture and yes it does make logical sense per our finite brains that the Holy Spirit be taken back on the same feast it was given, but I’m still holding out for a immanent or “any minute” rapture.
February 12, 2020 at 9:35 pm #10626MyWhiteStoneModerator
February 13, 2020 at 5:52 am #10629
February 14, 2020 at 4:29 pm #10674MyWhiteStoneModerator
Shavuot from Hebcal, Geri. 6 Sivan.
February 14, 2020 at 6:24 pm #10676
Thanks for the Hebrew calendar link, Dan. I’m trying to find Easter … instead of Sunday, April 12th … is it Friday, April 10th since its 50 days prior to the Hebrew, May 29th (Pentecost) date?
Do most watchers feel the Lord is going solely by the Hebrew calendar vs. the Gregorian one? Or perhaps He will be using 2 calendars? I was thinking since we are still in the “Time of Gentile Age“ perhaps the Lord is going to fulfill the rapture date with the Gregorian calendar and then switch over to the Hebrew calendar for the “Time of Jacob’s trouble”?
February 14, 2020 at 6:47 pm #10677
My personal opinion leans more toward God following the Hebrew Calendar as it follows closely to the lunar/solar cycle as set by God.
The Hebrew calendar is a lunisolar calendar, meaning that months are based on lunar months beginning with the new moon siting but years are based on solar years. So it is a bit of a floating thing, difficult yes! There in is why it is harder to gage the years, except since 1948, the land is restored, and the life is 70 years or by good health (right living) 80 yrs. The pace is to fast to last to 80 years, so we are at the door. We can’t put God in a box (as some do, present company (family) excluded) or direct what we think God should do. We bow to what God is doing, we are along for the ride and to live to honor Him by doing His Will.
Isaiah 55:8-9 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
It is truly exciting just watching God work.
February 15, 2020 at 6:06 am #10701
I just saw this post from Thomas Maples … “about no man knows the day or the hour” … he makes a great case for the 2nd Coming being fulfilled on FOT vs that being the rapture event.
So if it does unfold that way … perhaps Pentecost is thee rapture date after all? Some believers think Pentecost was only half fulfilled … start of the church age and will be totally fulfilled with ending the church age when the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way and stops restraining … so all hell breaks loose for the tribulation. If using the 7 candle menorah the placement of Pentecost feast would be that middle candle. But if using the 9 candle menorah then back to square one about that theory.
I’m also thinking about the resurrection … it occurred on the first day of the week and that changed when the early church gathered for fellowship and worship switching from Saturday to Sunday. So my thoughts are leaning the Lord is using the Gregorian calendar for the church age … and Sunday, May 31st Pentecost could be the real high watch date vs. the Hebrew Friday, May 29th date. Its all a wait and see .. or perhaps we fly out of here on Resurrection Sunday, April 12th?
February 15, 2020 at 4:15 pm #10709
February 16, 2020 at 6:44 am #10722
I think we have another high-watch date to be on EXTRA alert for:
Saturday April 4, 2020 (Nissan 10 – Passover)
I was looking over at a post on the RITA facebook side … someone mentioned that on April 4, 2020 – Venus and Pleiades will meet – Venus will be sitting on Pleiades.
I’m not familiar with astronomy so I looked up the 2 names – Venus represents the woman and Pleiades is known as the Seven Sisters and Messier 45, are an open star cluster containing middle-aged, hot B-type stars located in the constellation of Taurus. Taurus (the bull) … so … do we have the woman riding the beast? Could this alignment be representing the tribulation is near?
Then I looked up Jewish history (Chabad.org) of what occurred on April 4th (Nissan 10) are you ready for this ….
Israelites crossed the Jordan (1273 BC)
Three days after the 2 spies dispatched by Joshua scouted the city of Jericho, the children of Israel were ready to enter the land of promised by God, to their ancestors as their eternal heritage. As they approached the Jordan with the Holy Ark carried by the Kohanim (priests) in their lead, the river parted for them, as the waters of the Red Sea had split when their fathers and mothers marched out of Egypt 40 years earlier. (Joshua 4).
– Fair Use –
So on Nissan 10 the Israelites enter Jordan (the promise land) … could it be the Church will enter (the promise land of heaven) on the same holiday? Could it be at the stroke of midnight (Saturday) April 4th (Passover) the rapture happens and the next minute its …. Palm Sunday morning, April 5th? Will palms be handed out to us at the rapture celebration reunion in heaven, just like we see in Revelation 7:9-14 – the Tribulation Saints are in heaven with palms in their hands?
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
February 19, 2020 at 2:52 am #10797
I still prefer Pentecost rapture on July 17 this year. This may catch many Christians, Catholic, and Messianic Jews off guard because they observe a different Pentecost. Jesus says no man knows the day and hour. It may due to the real Pentecost has been lost. This is why no man knows the day and hour of rapture, because the Jews adhere to Sivan 6, while Catholic and all Christian denomination set the Pentecost fifty days after Easter Sunday which is also the wrong day for calculating the real Pentecost.
February 19, 2020 at 9:13 am #10802
Hi 2nd Coming,
Sorry but I have to disagree with you on using the “no man knows the day and hour” reasoning to back up your theory for the July 17th high watch rapture date. (Note: the rapture could very well be on Pentecost whether its May 29th, May 31st or July 17th of this year but what I’m saying is “no man knows the day or the hour shouldn’t apply to the rapture) because:
The phrase “No man knows the day or the hour” does not refer to the rapture event but for the 2nd coming. In Matt 24 passage the disciples were asking Jesus when He will be coming back to set up His earthly Kingdom. Jesus did answer their question … by saying the day of His return will be on “Feast of Trumpets” because that feast is also known by the nickname as “No one knows the day or the hour”.
Per Thomas Maples … posted this on RITA facebook side:
“The whole no one knows the day or the hour don’t pertain to the rapture, but the 2nd Coming. As I’ve mentioned countless times before, the word “know” in that verse means able to perceive. The placing of it in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 after the Lord turns off the light of the sun and the moon correlates nicely to Joel 2, Zechariah 14, Isaiah 13 about the Day of Judgement of the Lord. Considering the next Feast day of God to be fulfilled (presumably) is the Feast of Trumpets (Trumpets being blown when the Lord’s people go to war) also works nicely since it begins at the first sighting of the first sliver of the new moon. Which won’t be able to be perceived since the light of the sun and the moon are darkened. Not by mankind, not by angels. But God always knows.”
This is not saying that date setting is forbidden. It’s saying that when the moment comes, they won’t be able to see the day and hour that it comes. From a practical viewpoint, there’s no sense being adamant about any particular date not because it’s forbidden, but because He didn’t give us enough information to figure it out. Which has kept the entire Church on its toes since the early days when even the Apostles seemed to expect His return imminently.
Per Thomas Maples again
“Jesus said that the 2nd Coming would happen after tribulation stops, after He turns off the light of the sun and the moon, and after He places the sign of the Son of Man in the heavens. Daniel’s 70th week involves a number of promises that don’t take place until after He returns to earth and removes the unrighteous, establishes His Kingdom, anoints the Most Holy (although we aren’t told if that’s a person, a place, or a thing). The implication, hard as it is to hear, is that Tribulation is actually a bit less than 7 years. Perhaps what He meant when He said “unless the days be shorten” …
Per Watching & Waiting (Mechelle) posted this on the RITA facebook:
“Yes, Dianne Daraitis Rothenbuehler! You’re absolutely right! Finally someone puts that phrase in context! Lol.
It is about the second coming, speaking to Jews during the tribulation. It is not referring to the rapture because that mystery has not even been revealed until it is revealed later to Paul.”
– Fair Use –
February 19, 2020 at 2:06 pm #10820
Many of us believe no man knows the day and hour points to rapture. Jesus’ return to earth can be known because he has given the left behind 1290 days, 1335 days, 2300 days, time, times and half time to foresee his return. But for the sake of rapture, he didn’t leave many clues for us to find out. To calculate the day for rapture is very difficult. We can only speculate at this time, especially July 17. But once it happens, the left behind can look forward 7 biblical years to calculate Jesus returning to earth. It won’t take a rocket scientist to find out the day for second advent.
February 19, 2020 at 3:03 pm #10832
“It won’t take a rocket scientist to find out the day for 2nd advent”.
I disagree because most of the unsaved won’t even be looking for Jesus at the 2nd Coming. They will be in shock. Only the 1/3 Jews who were obedient and fled to Petra will be. However, they wont have time to pack up their bags and bring a 3 1/2 year calendar with them to mark off the days remaining. Perhaps they will have a watch that shows the date but will the battery eventually conk out? The sun, moon and stars will not shine forth … so how will they know when its truly day time vs. night time? Also time speed will be in full force … we are already seeing that phenomenal event happening right now with the seconds speeding up per minute making the days/months pass quickly. Even the unsaved are noticing it but don’t know the why. Last week I had a chatty nurse telling me her personal life while preparing me for my colonoscopy exam. She went on and on about each child and who got married and who now has a newborn and who is getting married this summer and what projects she is working on in her house. She then out of the blue that said she doesn’t have time to finished any of her hobbies and still hasn’t seen her grandson yet and they live in Albany, NY and then said … is time speeding up or what?! I said YES it is!
February 19, 2020 at 2:27 pm #10821
I agree 2ndcoming! Won’t it be glorious! A glorious departure fit for a Bride! And then being in the presence of our Creator God, Then to gaze upon all the glories of Heaven and of God himself!
The greatest story ever told, the redemption story. Although based in a reality more real than we have yet experienced, it also is the greatest fantasy ever conceived as well!
And if that were not enough, it is all based on a God who loves!!! And His love is stronger than all else, even death itself. And longer than time! Time will blush at how inadequate it is, and death will run from His presence and ours.
Our love of God will never compare or outshine His love for us! This makes my heart quiver and urges me to apologize for the inability of mine heart!
February 19, 2020 at 5:20 pm #10838ChrisParticipant
Good article and replies everyone.
I’m still of the same opinion of Jack Kelly, in that the Rapture is not a date specific event, but rather a number specific event. “until the full number of Gentiles comes in”.
Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,
That being said, that last guy/gal coming to Christ could happen on a Feast day. LOL! So, while I’m not a particular Feast watcher, my spidey senses do pick up around those days. Any day will be a glorious day for the Church.
Love in Him.
February 19, 2020 at 5:45 pm #10839
February 19, 2020 at 6:07 pm #10840EarthangelParticipant
This is a comment on Geri7’s find of the conjunction of Venus and the Pleiades on Passover.
Here is a quote as to the meaning of the Pleiades from Bullinger’s “Witness of the Stars”:
“Then there is the cluster of stars known as the Pleiades. This word, which means the congregation of the judge or ruler, comes to us through the Greek Septuagint as the translation of the Hebrew כִּימָה, Chima, . . ”
In Revelation, Christ refers to Himself as the bright and morning star which is Venus.
To me, this conjunction pictures the rapture if the Pleiades would represent the church (congregation?) and Jesus as Venus. Perhaps this is a sign in the sky indicating the nearness of the rapture?
February 19, 2020 at 6:18 pm #10845EarthangelParticipant
This is a comment on the topic of this thread, the rapture possibly happening on Feast of Trumpets. Perry Stone has been on TBN promoting a new rapture (prophecy) book. His beliefs are exactly the same as the link, about Feast of Trumpets being the next feast to fullfil and that it refers to the rapture. Also that it means the rapture is pre-trib as the next feast (Atonement) has to do with the tribulation.
Personally, I can see also why Pentecost is a candidate. Especially with the timing of the harvests; it ends the barley harvest and begins the wheat harvest. Barley is processed by throwing it in the air so the chaff is blown away, symbolizing rapture. Wheat is processed by an instrument called a tribulum which crushes the hard core, symbolizing the tribulation.
I’d be happy if the rapture happens this year; I can’t dogmatically say what time of year it will be but the signs are there. I’ve been amazed that our President’s name is “Trump”, as to me that symbolizes the rapture, “the last “trump”. So I’ve been expecting the rapture any time during the last 4 years. I guess if we see him reelected that extends the watch. Especially since our biggest watch dates will have gone by if we see Pres. Trump reelected.
February 19, 2020 at 6:55 pm #10848
Pres Trump was placed into office by God for a time such as this. Mainly to befriend Israel and protect the U.S. from self destruction.
That said, should he be re-elected that doesn’t mean we’ll all be here for four more years. That just means he will be in office of the President when the Rapture happens.
February 21, 2020 at 4:26 pm #10894
I posted this thought on RITAN facebook. Since some members here don’t have access to facebook, here we go.
Jesus says no man knows the day and hour of rapture. I guess I finally know why he says that. The Jews observe their Shavuot/Pentecost on Sivan 6, while Catholic and all Christians denominations observe Pentecost fifty days after Easter Sunday. None of this group believe Pentecost actually falls on Tammuz 26. When God destines rapture on the real Pentecost, how will they suppose to know the day when they already made an error on choosing the wrong day for Pentecost? The real Pentecost has been lost for many generations. When God picks Pentecost for rapture day, none of us could have thought of Tammuz 26. I believe this is why Jesus says no man knows the day and hour.
February 22, 2020 at 5:20 pm #10921
Here’s a recap of how I used time, times, and half time to calculate the rapture date. From the mystery number 153 which runs parallel to Leviticus 23:15-16, and the Hebrew names of twelve minor prophets, they both point to Tammuz 26 shall play a very important role in future. Simply put, Tammuz 26 is the real Shavuot/Pentecost. This is also the feast God shall remember and sends Jesus back for it. This is why I placed 1335 days on Tammuz 26. It summarizes all the tribulation events.
Take 2020 to 2027 timeline for example. 1335 days ends on Tammuz 26 July 31 2027. Because Tammuz 26 begins on sundown Tammuz 25, I used Tammuz 25 July 30 as the end of 1335 days. Subtract 45 days from July 30, we come to June 15 as the end of 1290 days. Subtract 1290 days from June 15 2027, we come to Dec 3 2023 as the beginning of 1290 days. Dec 3 2023 falls on Kislev 20 in that year. AC shall place the abomination on Kislev 20 2023. This event is remembered by God as “time, times, and half time”, illustrated below.
time Kislev 20 2024 the first year anniversary of abomination
times Kislev 20 2025, Kislev 20 2026 the second and third year anniversary of abomination
To calculate half time, we need to find the half way point between Kislev 20 2026 and Kislev 20 2027. Kislev 20 2026 falls on Nov 30 2026 , while Kislev 20 2027 falls on Dec 20 2027. Between these two dates, there are 385 days. Divide 385 days by 2, and round it to nearest zero, we have 193 days. Add 193 days to Nov 30 2026, we come to June 11 2027 as the “half time”. June 11 falls on Sivan 6 in 2027. Because God only gives the beast authority over the Jews for “time, times, and half time”, it places Jesus’ second coming on “half time” which is June 11 Sivan 6 2027, to take back the power from the beast.
To calculate the date for rapture, I subtract 2520 days from June 11 Sivan 6 2027, and come to July 17 2020 as the day for rapture and tribulation to begin. Coincidentally, July 17 2020 falls on Tammuz 25. Pentecost/Shavuot begins on sundown Tammuz 25. Rapture may very well happen after sundown Tammuz 25 Jerusalem time. If it does, we can call it Pentecost rapture.
But to confirm this timeline, I also expect a three shepherds war by this May or June. If all fails, I shall look at the possibility of 2021 to 2028 timeline, using the same calculation.
February 24, 2020 at 10:09 am #10988
Mat 24:36 “But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
Mat 24:37 For as the days of Noah were, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark,
Mat 24:39 and they knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away, so too will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:40 Then two will be in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.
Mat 24:41 Two women will be grinding meal together; one will be taken and one will be left.
Its difficult to see this as the Second Coming of Christ. I find it very difficult to imagine eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage while the world it literally torn to pieces and hell is running rampant on earth. Also, Noah’s ark was an architype of the Rapture so how does it occur at the Second Coming? In nowhere that I have ever read are verses 40 and 41 events that take place other than the Rapture. I also find it difficult to separate verse 36 from 37. The 24th chapter is a three part message; the end times for the nations, the end times for the Jews, and the end times for the Church, which is why verses 29-35 are chronologically after 36-51.
February 24, 2020 at 10:44 am #10994
Well perhaps when things get so unbearable bad … people will be going into survival mode to find happiness or they will go crazy. If they don’t have Jesus … they tend to drown their sorrows with booze. So I can see the bars and dance clubs being a hot spot … drinking to get drunk, dancing the night away and eating to try to forget all the calamities going on. I think the marriages will be more of the gay marriages and anything they want to marry … their pets, etc. anything goes in their reprobate minds showing their rebellious spirit. Plus there is the scene after the 2 witnesses get martyred and their bodies are laying in the street … the unsaved are celebrating and sending gifts to one another.
Check out this passage when the sun, moon and stars don’t shine their light … it looks like it occurs early on in the tribulation … when the 6th seal gets opened.
Revelation Chapter 6
The church is in heaven watching
Jesus opens the first seal – then there is noise of thunder
Rider on the white horse (AC) arrives on the scene
Jesus opens the 2nd seal
Rider on the red horse (war unfolds – able to take peace from the earth and they killed one another with great sword)
Jesus opens the 3rd seal
Rider on the black horse (famine and high cost for food and supplies)
Jesus opens the 4th seal
Rider on the pale horse (1/4 of the earth dies both humans and animals from fighting and hunger)
Jesus opens the 5th seal
Tribulation saints are martyred (souls of them that were slain for the Word of God and for their testimony)
Jesus opens the 6th seal
Great earthquake, sun becomes black as sackcloth of hair, moon becomes blood, and the stars of heaven fell from the sky (sounds like total darkness day and night) again how will the left behind be able to calculate 7 years before the 2nd Coming event (no man knows the day or hour) if there are no more sunrises and sunsets? The earth is getting a prelude of hell with total darkness day and night.
Then heaven departed as a scroll
Every mountain and island moved out of their places
The kings of the earth, great men, rich men and chief captains, might men, every bond man and free man hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains. They said to the mountains and rocks … “fall on us and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb” (still man refuses to repent … they rather die. I wonder how many rich died that remained underground?)
For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
February 24, 2020 at 10:18 am #10993
February 24, 2020 at 12:05 pm #10995
[quote]Or perhaps what He meant was the shortening of the days was what brings it to 1260 days after the Abomination.[/quote]
Unless those days should [have already been shortened by the Father’s predetermination] no flesh should be saved. This is in regards to a looming extinction level event, as they call it. God already knew He could not set the time at one day longer or everyone would be dead. The time for the final half will be fixed at 1,260 days. Then there are things to follow that which will:
[F]inish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy [Place?].
Note that “place” is added and the translation is uncertain.
Some of those things take place after the 1,260 days are accomplished.
February 24, 2020 at 1:28 pm #10996
I certainly agree that the part about eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage is an indication of life as usual before the start of the Tribulation and does not at all fit with a description of the end of it.
Mat 24:40 Then two will be in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.
Mat 24:41 Two women will be grinding meal together; one will be taken and one will be left.
But the parallel passage in Luke 17 complicates things:
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
So far, that could be consistent with Christ coming in the rapture and sudden destruction following.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot’s wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Here we have something which matches the flight of the remnant following the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. Matthew 24:15-18
Continuing with Luke 17:
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Taken by itself, that might sound like a description of the rapture, such as depicted in “I Wish We’d All Been Ready.” But how does that fit in chronologically coming after the Jews are force to flee into the wilderness for 1,260 days? Some might seize upon that and argue for a mid-tribulation rapture. I disagree with that for a number of reasons. Are we dealing with an event out of sequence here, or is it about something different?
Some will be in bed (the Greek does not say it’s “men,” just “two.”) Some will be grinding grain, presumably, and some will be in the field, when the separation occurs.
Who is taken, who is left, where and why?
The Disciples wanted to know “where” most of all.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
Now, this is a difficult passage, subject to all kinds of interpretations. It is a parable, and what does it actually tell us?
There is no definitive answer given to the question of “where.” We are just to know that where you find “x” you will find “y.” If this were a rapture verse, I’d be looking for some indication of Jesus saying He would gather us to Himself at that time. It could be, but it sure is a cryptic response.
It seems likely that Jesus is referring to Job 39:27-30.
27 Doth the eagle mount up at thy command, and make her nest on high?
28 She dwelleth and abideth on the rock, upon the crag of the rock, and the strong place.
29 From thence she seeketh the prey, and her eyes behold afar off.
30 Her young ones also suck up blood: and where the slain are, there is she.
I just don’t see “rapture” in the reply. I see an image of death for the ones who are “taken,” and not “glory.” If I am mistaken, as I could well be, it seems an odd image for something related to our victory over the grave.
February 24, 2020 at 2:10 pm #10997
David wrote … Continuing with Luke 17:
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
You know I just noticed that verse … eek … 2 men in bed?! Gay marriage?! But one was taken and the other left? That’s a whole new discussion right there!
I guess we have to agree to disagree and wait and see because …
I still lean though that at the Olivet Discourse the disciples were looking for answers of when Jesus would return to set up His Kingdom. They were fighting amongst themselves about who was going to be the greatest in the earthly Kingdom. They knew nothing about the rapture. It wasn’t until much later after Saul became Paul and later on suddenly had that outer body experience in 11 Corinthians 12:1-11 and got translated into heaven and learned about the mystery of the rapture. Then revealed it to the churches in Corinth and Thessalonica to give them comfort since they were wondering what is going to happen to their saved loved ones who had died. So for Jesus to give his disciples the answer “no man knows the day or the hour” I still think He was referring to the 2nd Coming for the millennium kingdom since that was the topic being discussed.
- This reply was modified 3 days, 21 hours ago by Geri7.
February 24, 2020 at 3:07 pm #11005
February 24, 2020 at 3:58 pm #11006
February 24, 2020 at 4:03 pm #11007
February 24, 2020 at 4:30 pm #11009
You will be surprised though … on another forum board I used to hang out on some members there considered the homosexual sin as just any ordinary sin and down played the abomination part. I’m leaning they have a love one in that lifestyle. It clearly says though in this passage those that continue to practice that lifestyle will not make heaven.
I Corinthians 6:9-11
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Or is it possible that a former homosexual can still struggle with that sin after getting saved?
February 24, 2020 at 4:38 pm #11010
I interpret it as a common language usage, enveloping the whole. Two men includes all men. Each asleep some are taken, some are left behind!
Geri7, no doubt ex- anybody being human will struggle with the sins of their past live. Temptations will always continue.
As a wise man once taught, temptations are like birds flying in the air, sin is when we let them nest upon our heads.
February 24, 2020 at 4:44 pm #11012
February 25, 2020 at 10:13 am #11034
February 25, 2020 at 11:29 am #11038
February 25, 2020 at 10:21 am #11035
February 25, 2020 at 11:04 am #11036
February 25, 2020 at 11:11 am #11037
February 25, 2020 at 8:10 pm #11057
February 25, 2020 at 8:12 pm #11058
Thank you, Regina. That was an excellent youtube from Andy Woods
Ok to recap it all:
”He is coming like a thief in the night” – is that the rapture? Nope
“No man knows the day or the hour” – does that apply to the rapture? Nope. Instead its in reference that the unbelievers living in the tribulation they will be clueless in knowing the time or program of God. So they will be shell shocked when He suddenly appears at the 2nd Coming because they won’t be expecting Him.
”One will be taken and the other left” … this does NOT apply to the saved being raptured out but pertains to the lost during the end of the tribulation taken out for the Judgment of the goats. Only the tribulation believers (sheep) who made it to the end … will enter the millennium kingdom.
Matthew 24 and Luke 17 are all about the 2nd coming advent and NOT the rapture at all.
All Scripture is for us but not all Scripture is about us.
I have 2 questions … Luke 21 is also talking about the tribulation period but then there is verse 28 … “And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.”. Is this pertaining to the rapture?
My other question is did Noah actually warn and witness to his generation while building the ark? Because Genesis 6:9 says “These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. (meaning his genes were not tampered with … his family were still 100% human). Meanwhile it says there were giants walking about and I think there could have been centaurs – half man/half beast walking around. In Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed (demon seed) and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. So why would Noah witness to the people of his generation if they were all giants or part man/part beast? Or were some people still fully human?
February 26, 2020 at 12:29 am #11070OlafParticipant
I see there are so many conflicting ideas in this forum, yet it is interesting to see the both sides of the argument. As may believe in a RAPTURE, having an interest in a Rapture Forum, I see that there are some who have not linked former shadow EXAMPLES in the Bible with the times of the END.
There are some who do not link examples of PAST occurrences as being a dress rehearsal for the END.
I could be wrong in my view, but there are 3.5yrs that ELIJAH was dealing with Israel long ago.
James 5:17. Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of THREE YEARS and SIX MONTHS.
Malachi 4:5. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Some seem to think that MOSES was NOT a companion of Elijah, in the time the 2 witnesses were to Prophesy. WHAT makes this Theory wrong … if this DUO were ALSO the TWO who, just before the PASSOVER happened, came to encourage Christ to go THROUGH with His Plan to DIE for us?
Luke 9:30. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31. Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
Some say it would have to be Enoch, as we were DESTINED to die Hebrew 9:27. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: …ONCE to DIE isn’t to DIE once.
– What about those raised, by Elijah and Yahusha? Some say that it was JOHN – the one who wrote Revelation, as they have no record of HIS death. Rev.10:11. And he said unto me, Thou must PROPHESY AGAIN before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
After digressing, I believe the GREAT Tribulation is JUST the LAST half of the LAST 7 Years. In other words, the 42Months mentioned in Rev.11:1-3, is when the Holy City is DOWN-Trodden, 42 months before the 1260Day of 2 Witnesses have 1260 Days prophecy, and DIE 8 DAYS before the Resurrection and ADVENT occurring on a ROSH HASHANA Trumpet EVENT, being New Year of the 5784. (September 16th 2023)
How do I come to 2023? We have BLOOD MOONS on FEAST days in 2014 & 2015, being the LAST TETRAD (4 BLOOD MOONS) – of which it is the 7th TETRAD that occurred in ISRAEL’S History!
These TETRADS were WARNINGS that occurred when Israel was almost about to be “Birthed” 1948, and also when 6 Day War occurred when Jerusalem was UNITED – Ending Gentile Occupation as was Prophesied in Luke 21:24. (Google BLOOD MOONS)
The Following year after the last TETRAD, was the START of 5777, – Which was the October 3rd 2016. I believe the TRIPPLE 7 was God’s hint to say 7 FINAL years is Commencing!
Thus we have TRUMP being Elected just AFTER Oct. 3rd 2016. (Till Sept. 16th 2023) Dan.12:1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
This does not say that TRUMP is of GOD, but he STANDS for land of Israel.
All the TIME MENTIONED in Daniel and Revelation HINGE on the Last 7 YEARS, which has 42 + 42Months. (2016 till 2023) – all but 2,300Evenings & Mornings – (1,150Days) relate to that 7 yrs.
42 Months Holy CITY is DOWN-TRODDEN (Holy City = Rev.21:2 – NOT Old but NEW Jerusalem)
New Jerusalem is the BRIDE/FIRST Fruits(Not HARVEST)/ Woman Taken with Eagle Wings (Rev.12:6) 1,260Days Before Resurrection. NOT First Fruits of those who “Slept“.
1 Cor.15:20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
23. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward THEY that [SLEEP?] are Christ’s at his coming. [2nd ADVENT/Resurrection]
WHO are these who are DWELL in HEAVEN? (While [Name Removed by Moderator] Continues 42 Months) – is it not the Chosen/Elected WOMAN Bride who is RAPTURED – For WHOM the DAYS were SHORTENED? Mark 13:20 .. but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. – For those NOT CHOSEN? – Inhabiting EARTH and of sea?
Rev.12:12. Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev.13:5. And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.
6. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
BLASPHEMY = Claiming to be GOD and FORGIVE our SINS? (Popes and Priests/Rabbi?)
Matt.23:8. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9. And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ.
Those who have NOT KNOWN of the DAY or HOUR?
Matt.25:12. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
- This reply was modified 1 day, 23 hours ago by David W. Roche. Reason: Naming of Antichrist or False Prophet not allowed
February 26, 2020 at 11:58 am #11081
Olaf, I agree that the three and a half years Elijah withheld the rain is significant to the Tribulation period, possibly a big indicator of Elijah being one of the two witnesses in Revelation 11.
I will also agree that the final 42 months are “great” tribulation, as echoed in Matthew 24:21. I’m not sure it is always used as a technical term, rather than general, but it is perhaps more accurate to refer to Daniel’s 70th week and the latter half as being “the end,” as that is how Jesus characterized it.
I would place the ministry of the two witnesses in the first 42 months of Daniel’s 70th week, which has definitely not begun yet, as there must be a “midst of the week” or 1,260 days in which sacrifices are conducted, before they are halted by the “prince that shall come.”
[quote]Thus we have TRUMP being Elected just AFTER Oct. 3rd 2016. (Till Sept. 16th 2023) Dan.12:1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.[/quote]
This does not say that TRUMP is of GOD, but he STANDS for land of Israel.[/quote]
But no, Trump is not “Michael” the Archangel. The time of Jacob’s Trouble has not commenced. We are still watching the prelude to the coming Tribulation.
[quote]All the TIME MENTIONED in Daniel and Revelation HINGE on the Last 7 YEARS, which has 42 + 42Months. (2016 till 2023) – all but 2,300Evenings & Mornings – (1,150Days) relate to that 7 yrs.[/quote]
The 2,300 Evenings and Mornings have already been fulfilled long ago and have nothing to do with future events. We are not yet in Daniel’s 70th week.
[quote]42 Months Holy CITY is DOWN-TRODDEN (Holy City = Rev.21:2 – NOT Old but NEW Jerusalem)[/quote]
Yes, OLD Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem will never be trodden down by unbelievers and is an actual city, not symbolic of the Church. We just live there, eventually.
[quote]New Jerusalem is the BRIDE/FIRST Fruits(Not HARVEST)/ Woman Taken with Eagle Wings (Rev.12:6) 1,260Days Before Resurrection. NOT First Fruits of those who “Slept“.[/quote]
The Woman who flees into the wilderness is the remnant of Israel, not the Bride of Christ.
Please refrain from naming candidates as the Antichrist or the False Prophet. We don’t permit that sort of speculation, and I will remove that comment.
February 26, 2020 at 2:32 pm #11083
Indeed we can only study to show ourselves approved. However, rightly dividing the Word of God has often been met with presumption in many teachings. The second coming indeed will be calculated.
But all the scriptures referencing the Rapture are all open ended and ambiguous. It still remains to be seen what axiom of priority the Lord will use to arrive at the Rapture’s date. Truly, it has already been chosen and set for one moment in time, even before the foundations were laid. That said, God alone is privy to that exact moment.
We are encouraged with the words that when we see such and such happen, we are look up for our redemption is near. That’s about all we are promised. We can indeed be made aware that we are the last of days and we can sense the various spiritual seasons. I therefore still maintain the Lord might give His Church a divine disclosure or a specified advance warning with regards to the Rapture.
Though I can’t be dogmatic about that point, it certainly fits in nicely with God’s previous dealings with men. It also seems to accommodate God’s character and heart. But we are in the season and the 70 to 80 year generation of Israel’s rebirth.
Elijah was a type of Christ. He ministered for 3 1/2 yrs just as Christ did. Adding the 3 1/2 yrs of Tribulation preaching bring him to a seven year time of ministry. Truly on a prophetic level, the Rapture resets the clock for man’s days upon this Earth system we presently abide in. After the Rapture many things can then be accurately calculated, for the Lord’s prophetic word shall be fulfilled.
Again following the Jewish tradition, once a man was released to secure his bride an entourage or wedding party with much noise and celebration would announce the bridegroom was on his way! This way the future bride was assured of her upcoming wedding.
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