Godly Wisdom vs. Man’s Interpretations

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    • #9715
      Humbly Irrelevant
      Participant

      Brethren:

      I am aware that this is a predominantly Pre-Tribulation Christian Rapture Forum.  Thus, this is probably not written for those with that worldview (although you are welcome to pursue perusal if you wish).  This is mostly written to some lone person out there on the fence seeking answers, or some discontented person doubting our Christian faith, or some angry person seeking calm in their stormy life.

      I am also very aware that the following is just my opinion, and that I definitely don’t claim to have all the answers — and in most cases, don’t even know the questions. Please feel free to dismiss my thoughts at any moment and to wipe your feet from the dust of my convictions.

      I believe that my purpose in life is to put forth Biblical truth, despite the controversy that it may cause. To be a Soldier of Christ is just that — a SOLDIER that is willing to “FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT” despite the ramifications that will surely ensue. To those of you patient enough to endure this little diatribe, may God bless you with His wisdom that surpasses all mortal intelligence.

      I have contemplated writing this for quite some time, and although I do expect the Rapture very soon, I harbor tremendous trepidation about the “race to place a date” and the perceived “clout for figuring it out”.  I respect the eagerness and diligence of those who crunch the numbers to form intelligent postulations from the inerrant Word of God; however, I worry about those who have not read (or only moderately read) Scripture — and who follow only after a postulated “date” without any kind of spiritual discernment. This has ultimately led many “babes” down the path to spiritual frustration and emotional dejection.

      Personally, I don’t know if THE DATE can ever be figured out. I lean more to the opinion (again, my own belief) that The Rapture Day will be upon us in the “blink of an eye” without any warning, and that we must be ready, every day, for Jesus to come for us. It could be TODAY. The stories of Noah and Lot provide foreshadowing typecasts of what probably will occur on the day of our Rapture: “They were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark”; and “Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded” until THAT day arrived.

      Neither Noah nor Lot knew about the coming destruction for those around them until the very day that it occurred. Can we draw a parallel between the present current global paradigm and that of Noah and Lot? Is the world partying within the sunshine of summer while castigating Christians because we recognize the storm clouds of winter on the horizon? DO THEY SUGGEST THAT WE GET LOST WHEN WE RECOMMEND THAT THEY GET SAVED? Does the world hold us in derision because we are a hindrance to their “enlightenment” and that we aren’t “woke”? Are we a threat to the world because we espouse moral ideals and a firm belief in an Infinite God — which they deny?

      “But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.”

      Notice that Paul did not say to follow after our own interpretations, our own reasoning, or our own intellect? He advised us to follow the Word of God and to allow Scripture to flow deep into our spiritual souls and prevent the folly and frustration of following after self-proclaimed prophets. We are to follow Jesus, not man. Our seeking to determine “The Date” isn’t wrong in and of itself — it is the “interpretations of man” which are hailed as being from God when in reality they are from our own subconscious pride that lead us into trouble. The “thus saith the Lord” verbiage differentiates the Godly posters from the mortal IMposters.

      “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.”

      Notice that Peter didn’t state that one person would have a special revelation, dream, vision, or visitation in the end times that would provide us with the definitive Rapture Date. Peter stated that we are to rely upon our own reading of the Word, and let the Holy Spirit lead us into all righteousness, understanding, and discernment. In other Scripture we are provided clues concerning the Rapture, but God NEVER stated in His Word that a special “prophet” would receive revelation about THE DATE that we are all now anxiously seeking. Why do we continue to put total credence in the postulations of man instead of reading and understanding the WISDOM of God? Why do we set ourselves up for failure in this respect?

      “Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.”

      Though we may be beaten down and bloodied, we are not to give in to the hardships of life. God is not punishing us with these life events — He is using these situations to bring us closer to Him and to allow us the privilege of assisting in bringing others to Eternal Salvation. It is necessary for us to endure the hardships so that our witness can shine unto others. However, it appears that too many of us are more concerned only about tomorrow’s possible escape rather than focusing the best we can today, with the time that we have left, to bring others to Salvation?

      “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”

      Reproving and rebuking those who scratch the “itching ears” these days is tantamount to being closed-minded and a rabble-raiser. Too many well-intentioned, godly Christians are more obsessed with every newly-prophesized date than they are about remaining within the safe confines of sound doctrine. Too many spend their time reading forums instead of their Bibles. They put more stock in what man/woman says rather than listening to what God says within His Word. Thus, they are more concerned with a “date” than with enhancing their destiny with God in Paradise. And they will argue until they are blue in the face that their “interpretation” is the correct interpretation — and God help those that don’t agree with them.

      “But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.”

      Paul stated that we are to be looking for “his appearing” — not a “date” of His appearing. We all know that THE DATE is close, but we still don’t know exactly what “date”. I’ve seen many well-intentioned individuals proffer many dates in the previous years — only to revise them and submit new adjusted “dates” which then fail just as badly as the old “dates”. Yet the “babes” with “itching ears” continue to listen to these individuals and any new “dates” that are submitted.

      We don’t need to rely upon man’s postulations, calculations, and interpretations to determine the Rapture. We know that we are in THE SEASON. The current geopolitical, financial, and military formations in the world indicate that the exact events that God foretold would happen are ready to occur. We know that we will not be IN the storm of the Tribulation, but will be TAKEN OUT before the storm is upon the world. Thus, since we can see the shadows of the storm, we know that the rain must be close. Look up, for our Redemption draweth nigh!!

      In summation, God has foreordained a DAY that we will be Raptured — He knows when, but we can only guess. And since we are mortal, it is just a guess (however informed and heavily researched it may be). I believe it will be on a normal day that we “think not”. God never stated that He would provide “special revelation” to a certain person about the specific date. We must take heed that the Word of God is pure and does not return void. If something if from God, then it does not need to be “interpreted” by man. If God speaks to us, it will come to pass without any confusion. The prophesied “signs of the times” have definitely revealed that we are in the “times of the signs”.

      There is no doubt that Jesus is ready to break through those Heavens and meet us in the clouds. Let us look to His Word for wisdom, and lean on His Spirit for understanding so as to continue to make intelligent guesses. But let us discontinue to seek after “prophets” without first ensuring that we are on solid foundation. May Jesus come today!!!

      We need Jesus — we don’t need anything further.  He is sufficient for all our needs.  He will lift us up and save us from this world.

      John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

      Matthew 7:13 – 7:14: “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way,that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

      Trust in Jesus — not yourself, not someone else, not some other false god — trust in Jesus!!!

      Amen, Hallelujah!!

      Humbly

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    • #9722
      Yohanan
      Moderator

      I remember very clearly one night being so excited that the Rapture was at hand, knowing from all the signs that “this was THE night”, staying up until sleep finally overtook me only to wake the next morning decimated by the fact that I was still on this sin sick planet, and I am a four decade seasoned watcher. From that time on, now several years later, I have never conceded to any date. If I was so crushed by the passing of THE date, how many new siblings were and did they walk away from their faith because of it? How damaging was that to them? It took several days for me to come out of the depressed state I was in which also means it sidelined me from being the good soldier that you mentioned.

      I do understand the desire to puzzle through the clues and try to figure it out. God gave us the ability to reason and a desire to be with Him, so it makes sense to me why we try to figure it out, and I’m good with that. I find many of our sibling research fascinating but I also totally agree with you that we will not know the date and at best it is only speculation. That is something we all need to keep in mind when we read others research and educated guesses, because, as you’ve said, they are just guesses.

      I also agree that we should be spending out time with our noses in our Bibles and not chasing every person out there with a theory. It avails to nothing good and shows that we are seeking answers from man to please our itching ears, which Scripture warms us about. To do so puts man ahead of God. Again, while I’m all for theories and speculations it needs to be kept in its proper place and that place is never to be before the Word of God, which, again, as you’ve said, is not something He gives to the “privileged” few.

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    • #9724
      Geri7
      Participant

      Well I must be the odd ball … because I need high watch dates to jot down on my calendar :mail: or else it will be a loooong  boring year to endure. :negative:   This is what attracted me to the RITA board along with the J.D. youtubes were posted every Sunday night. :good:   Having high watch dates is not sinful … “nobody knows the day or the hour” does not even apply to the rapture event but for the 2nd Coming.  I personally believe Jesus is pleased that we talk and discuss high watch dates … just like the wisemen did as they were using astronomy and calculating the timeframe when Jesus was to be born in the flesh at His first coming to Bethlehem!

      So it was refreshing to me seeing a forum board that permitted watchers to give their theories of research of when the Blessed Hope might fall on this day or that day.  Of course, I also look at signs of the times prophetic events too … to gauge the nearest of the Blessed Hope. ;-)

      There are many forum boards out there that won’t allow date setting in their rules.  I shy away from those boards and just rather be a lurker.   I don’t worry about date setting turning the lost away from salvation because they will use any old excuse from getting saved because they love their sin and don’t really want to change their lifestyle.   If a person is truly looking for answers … they won’t let a high watch date that came and went bother them.  If you seek Me with your whole heart you will find Me. Jesus says.  He knows who are his sheep and not one will be lost.

      John 10:27-30

      My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

      And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

      My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

      I and my Father are one.

      Again  … I’m soooo glad the RITA board does allow date setting. :whistle:

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    • #9727
      Yohanan
      Moderator

      If I understood HI’s point it’s was not that watching for “high watch dates” was wrong but the way some people chase them, holding to man’s teaching vs. sound Biblical doctrine that is. I find nothing wrong with examining the evidence and making conclusions, ie; high watch dates, but relying on them as the truth and “thus sayeth the Lord” types of statements is not Biblical. Ritan is all about watching for the Rapture, hence its name, but there are some who go too far. Scripture even tells us to watch and so we do. Fellowshipping and encouraging our fellow believers is what we are all about here and I find it very comforting to come to a place like this with like minded believers. What I won’t do anymore is put all my proverbial eggs in one basket again. Nor will I view view anyone’s interpretations as a sure thing. Mostly, I do not see that happening here. I think most of us have been down that alley too many times.

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    • #9728
      Yohanan
      Moderator

      “nobody knows the day or the hour” does not even apply to the rapture event but for the 2nd Coming.

      It’s actually the other way around. 1260 after the Abomination of Desecration the Lord will return. See Revelation 12:6

      6The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1, 260 days.

       

      Also, see Matthew 24:36-44

      36″But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42″Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your LORD will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

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    • #9730
      Tammie
      Participant

      I too, Yohanan, have been watching for just over 4 decades, since I attended a Jack Van Impe crusade in Miami, Fl in 1977 (could be off a year). I started reading everything on prophecy (not much then and a bit off base most). I have followed dates only to be terribly disappointed as well. About 15 yrs ago, in a study on Revelation, God did some serious talking to me. More of prophecy began to make sense, specifically the 10 virgin parable, in how we are to stay alert, be ready in season and out, stay busy about the Fathers business and keep watch, not falling asleep. Since that time, I enjoy the study on dates and believe God would not have us ignorant of the things going on and be very aware of the signs now all around us. Just like any earthly father, our Heavenly Father has planned a great event to finish the age of grace, a wedding. Brides and Bridegrooms typically know the date of the wedding, plans are made, all is put in order for the big day. It is a bit different in Jewish custom, as we are saved through a Jewish Savior and therefore have a Jewish groom, the church (made up of both Jew and Gentile) will follow a Jewish pattern in our snatching away to our wedding. I believe we will know the season, even close to an actual timeframe but it doesn’t weight on me anymore, I watch, pray, stay busy about my Father’s business, watching always and keeping my lamp wick trimmed (confessing sin), keeping oil filled (walking in the spirit). Some moments can come and go, I seek my Bridegroom and pray to see what else needs to be done. I don’t hold to the theory, that last person will get saved before we are raptured, as there will be people saved during the tribulation, God is very long suffering and would that no one should parish. My theory is simple, will what I do or say make a difference for someone’s eternity? See, I learned a long time age, it’s not about me, it is ALL about Jesus Christ and what He did for mankind. As John said, I must decrease and He (Jesus) must increase. So keep the focus always on Jesus, watching for Him, praying to Him, remaining a living sacrifice. We will know, as the trumpet will sound, and we who are alive and remain will hear it and be caught up…..that time is way closer than ever before, maybe even today. :prayer-hands:
      My two cents for what it’s worth and I agree, it’s all about how we are focusing on the process of our waiting….

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    • #9731
      Yohanan
      Moderator

      Yes, that’s it, Tammie. It’s about keeping everything in perspective and a proper balance. I believe it makes our Father happy to see us eagerly awaiting His Son’s coming for us and it is our natural curiosity and reasoning that causes us to try to see when that will happen. He has given us many clues but just like the Jewish wedding ceremony, we don’t know exactly when. He tells us we will know the season, however and it appears obvious to all of us that we are unquestionably well within that season. News events as so plainly pointing it out.

      We started our watching around the same time. Mine began with a book my mother had bought called The Vision by David Wilkerson. That was roughly 1977ish. Might have been a little earlier but I don’t recall anymore. I remember when I read it being in total disbelief that some of the things describe could actually happen. I reread the same book a few years ago and it was like reading newspaper archives. Two things in particular stood out as difficult to believe. One was children killing their parents. When the Menendez brothers murdered their parents in 1989 I remember chills running down my spine and what the book had prophesied. The other was an unstoppable flood of pornography in the home. Of course, there was no such notion of the internet back then. My, have times changed!

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    • #9738
      Geri7
      Participant

      I thought you were going to say your first prophetic book was the “Late Great Planet Earth”  because it seems like everyone under the sun read that in the late 1970’s early 1980’s.

      As far as “no one knows the day or the hour” I lean towards its in reference to “2nd Coming” vs. the rapture because ….

      Joel 3:15 says “The sun and moon will grow dark, and the stars will no longer shine.”

      So those living in tribulation time will not be able to calculate the rest of the 3 1/2 years remaining and will be surprised at the brightness of Jesus’ Glory when He comes down from the sky on His white horse.   The way I see it the faithful Jews hiding in Petra won’t be packing any bags when they flee to the hills.  So how will they have 3 years worth of paper calendars to mark off the passing days?  Or iPads with access to electronic calendars?  Or will the Angels supply them? :unsure:   I did see a snack bar with vending machines and a flat screen tv right near the Ancient City of Rock entrance.  Perhaps the angels will keep the electric power going and refilling the vending machines and food supply in their kitchen refrigerators and will keep the tv service active so they get world news and can keep tabs on what the AC is up to? :unsure:

      If I’m not mistaken, I think  Thomas Maples believes the same about “no one knows the day or hour” applies to the 2nd Coming but I can’t recall the exact eloquent words he used on the RITA facebook side. ;-)

       

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    • #9740
      tenderreed
      Participant

      There are a myriad of verses which addresses the second coming with great detail.  But sadly those that speak of the Rapture are open ended and vague!

      So we know that 7 yrs after the Rapture the Second Coming is due, so if you want to hide the Rapture your in essence hiding both events.

      To be quite frank, I concern myself with the Rapture only!  In depth studies and details of the second coming have not captured my imagination or attention.  That’s just the way I roll.  I’m glad for the studies for those that might be able to find them in those days.

      And I am looking for a more clear vision of the Rapture as time goes on!  Again, it seems that time is on our side, for we have far fewer days before us than behind us!

      TR

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    • #9742
      Geri7
      Participant

      :amen: T.R time is on our side and time is literally running out for the Church Age. :good:   I still expect that we all will have a heads up notice as thee Blessed Hope Day nears.  Even if its with some catastrophic event (like Elam’s destruction)  or if the changing of  leadership occurs in Iran … and the Shah of Iran’s son is placed back in power once more.  I then expect the people in that region to have a false sense of security and perhaps say “we now have peace and safety”  … I think all of us who are watching will say AHA … won’t be long now! :whistle:

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    • #9759
      Geri7
      Participant

      Speaking of the Shah of Iran’s son … :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn

      Iran crown prince predicts regime will collapse within months.

      January 15, 2020, 4:08 PM EST

      Washington (AFP) – The heir of Iran’s deposed monarchy predicted Wednesday that the clerical regime will collapse within months and urged Western powers not to negotiate with it.

      Reza Pahlavi said that major protests which erupted in November and again this month, after the accidental downing of a Ukrainian passenger jet, reminded him of the uprising that ousted his father in early 1979.

      “It’s just a matter of time for it to reach its final climax. I think we’re in that mode,” the former crown prince told a news conference in Washington, which he lives near in exile.

      “This is weeks or months preceding the ultimate collapse, not dissimilar to the last three months in 1978 before the revolution,” he said.

      While exiled activists have routinely predicted the fall of the regime, Pahlavi said that Iranians could “smell the opportunity for the first time in 40 years this time.”

      The 59-year-old heir to the Peacock Throne, who has not been to Iran since he was a teenager, cited as evidence what he called an easing of fear among protesters and the growing distancing of self-described reformists from the Islamic regime.

      In an address to the Hudson Institute, Pahlavi largely supported President Donald Trump’s “maximum pressure” campaign that has sought to isolate the Iranian regime through severe sanctions, saying that past negotiations have failed.

      “It has long been time to recognize that this is not a normal regime and that it will not change its behavior,” Pahlavi said.

      “My compatriots understand that this regime cannot be reformed and must be removed.”

      Iranians “expect the world to show more than just moral support. They expect not to be thrown under the bus in the name of diplomacy and negotiation.”

      Trump previously held out hope of negotiations but has recently said he was unconcerned with talks and ordered the killing of a top Iranian general, Qasem Soleimani.

      Pahlavi, whose Western-oriented father was closely allied with the United States, has played down prospects for restoration of the monarchy.

      He says instead that he wants to support a broad coalition of Iranians who will replace the regime with a secular democracy.

      Asked whether he can represent all Iranians, Pahlavi said: “It’s not about me, it’s about the people of Iran.”

      “You may not like the messenger, but is there something wrong with the message?”

      – Fair Use –

       

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    • #9760
      2ndcoming
      Participant

      This Reza Pahlavi could be one of the ten kings Anti Christ appoints when he combines the two legs after Gog/Magog. He is pro western. After Gog Magog, Iran is decimated by God. There is a political vacuum in the region. Anti Christ shall revive the Roman empire by creating a new alliance. This new alliance consists of the western leg and eastern leg. Don’t sell short Reza Pahlavi yet as he could be the western puppet put in the office after Gog Magog.

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    • #9762
      2ndcoming
      Participant

      Going back to what Humbly Irrelevant posted, I have to disagree with him. Jesus is the head, and the church is his body. The body makes up many different parts. Some are good doing missionary, while some are good and gifted in revealing God’s plan.  Why should we stop these people when they have a better discernment regarding bible prophecy? I am always interested in listening to different perspective concerning the date of rapture and second coming. Does it bother me if they fail? Not at all. What we have to do is to judge them with the power of scripture. If they deviate too much from scripture, then we put a stop there. Examples are Revelation 12 sign in 2017, the astrological  alignment  of woman bearing a child.  That is totally absurd and has no biblical basis. This is what we should have rebuked and I did. But for people who follow scripture only and did their reasoning based on scripture, we should give these people a chance.

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    • #9764
      Yohanan
      Moderator

      I agree 2nd Coming. Evidence based on scripture should be considered. I’ve read many intelligently thought out studies, including yours, but what I do not do anymore is hang my hat on any of them due to the let down I’ve experienced in the past. I cannot think of any topic that captures my attention like the Rapture of the church, most especially in the days we live in now. In times past any single big event had me sure it must be upon us. Today, with multiple events happening nearly on a daily basis we know it’s got to be very soon, and I expect that it is, but I don’t stay up all night on any given watch date. The let down is too depressing and depression is not from God. We might all be sitting around the Banquet Table discussing all of this tonight, and I truly hope we will be, but if not then tomorrow I’ll carry on with life and not suffer the blow that another night passed and we’re still here.

       

      Geri, I agree. This development could bring about “peace and safety” and why wouldn’t it? Israel has good relations with other Arab states and if Iran returns to its pre 1979 status then that would remove her biggest enemy from the scene.

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    • #9774
      Geri7
      Participant

      Whaat?!!  No way … you actually agree “that the development of the reinstatement of the Crown Prince of Iran could bring about the “peace and safety” announcement? :yahoo:    Seriously … I do think this has more potential of the scenario unfolding this way vs. the unveiling of Trump’s peace deal because …. I was reading they might NOT roll it out before the March 2nd elections.  I’m just sooo tired of them dangling the carrot in front of the horse and then quickly snatching it away again. :negative:

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    • #9775
      Yohanan
      Moderator

      I do. It makes good sense because it would bring Iran back to it’s former status of being allies with the West which would indicate that they would have good relations with Israel.

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    • #9779
      2ndcoming
      Participant

      Yohanan, Paul says the sudden destruction will not take us by surprise. Sudden destruction is the rapture. Paul must have some kind of assurance from God when he said that. He most likely received this assurance from God when he was caught up to third heaven. He didn’t know what kind of event would lead to sudden destruction. But a careful examination of Zechariah 11, now we know that event is the three shepherds war. When we see this war breaks out, we know rapture is near. This is why rapture should not take us by surprise. And that is exactly what Paul meant.

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      • #9784
        Geri7
        Participant

        2nd Coming … many end time watchers believe that the church is not here when God pours out His wrath on the prophetic battles up ahead.  The church is long gone.  In Zechariah 11 the last verse talks about the AC will be wounded in battle.  ”Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.”

        Are you saying the church is still going to be here to witness God’s wrath with the 3 Shepherd wars and see the AC get wounded before the rapture?  Because it looks to be in conflict with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-10 this passage clearly says the man of sin will not be revealed “until the falling away first“ and “the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way” (at the rapture). 

        2 Thessalonians 2:1-10 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

        That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

        Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

        Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

        Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

        And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

        For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

        And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

        Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

        And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

        And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

        That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

        But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

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    • #9786
      Yohanan
      Moderator

      Paul says sudden destruction will not take us by surprise in 1 Thes 5 because we will not be here. The Rapture will have already occurred according to 1 Thess 4:15-17

      1 Thess 15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

      Then in the next chapter, chapter 15, he declares it will overtake those who have rejected Christ.

      1Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. 2For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. 5For you are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not sleep as the others do, but let us remain awake and sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night; and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation. 9For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

      Paul never tells us we will know the day or the hour, in fact Jesus Himself tells us that even He doesn’t know: Mt 24:36  But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

      “The Day of the Lord” is a term used in both the Old and the New Testament, as in “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come”, which will take the non-believers like a thief in the night. It will not take believers by surprise because again, we will already be raptured into Heaven.

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    • #9787
      2ndcoming
      Participant

      Geri7, I have attached “The three shepherds war” for you to read. Zechariah 11 verse 15 speaks of the appearance of a foolish shepherd. His arms wither and his right eye is dried.  God prophesied the fate of this foolish shepherd. He shall receive a wound from sword (Revelation 13:14) but he shall live. The end result of his wound is both arms wither and the right eye is dried.This event shall happen close to middle of tribulation.

      Three shepherds war in Zechariah 11

      Zechariah 11:1 Open thy doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour thy cedars.

      2 Howl, fir tree; for the cedar is fallen; because the mighty are spoiled: howl, O ye oaks of Bashan; for the forest of the vintage is come down.

      3 There is a voice of the howling of the shepherds; for their glory is spoiled: a voice of the roaring of young lions; for the pride of Jordan is spoiled.

      8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.

      Through the prophet Zechariah, God has foretold one day He shall cut off three shepherds in one month. They are Lebanon, Syria ( Bashan ), and Jordan . Through out history, we couldn’t validate that this prophecy has been fulfilled. There is no biblical and historical evidence that the ancient Moab, Edom, Ammon (Jordan) together with Damascus ( Bashan ) and Tyre (Lebanon) were cut off together in one month. This prophecy is still waiting for it’s fulfillment. It shall be fulfilled per Amos 1-2, Psalm 83 and Isaiah 17:1-2..

      But my focus point is not this.

      Zechariah 11:10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. 11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.

      Immediately after the three shepherds are cut off, God shall break the covenant with all the people. There have been some major covenants God has made with people. They are Noahic covenant, Abrahamic covenant, Mosaic covenant, Davidic covenant. None of the covenant can be broken because God promised not to destroy the whole earth again per Noahic covenant. For Abrahamic covenant, God shall give the land to Abraham’s rightful descendant who is Israel. This prophecy is still waiting for it’s fulfillment. At the end of tribulation, after Jesus returns, the Jews shall inherit the promised land.

      Mosaic covenant

      [ The Mosaic covenant, found in Exodus 19–24 and the book of Deuteronomy, contains the foundations of the written Torah and the Oral Torah. In this covenant, God promises to make the Israelites his treasured possession among all people[Exo 19:5] and “a kingdom of priests and a holy nation”[Exo 19:6], if they follow God’s commandments. As part of the terms of this covenant, God gives Moses the Ten Commandments. These will later be elaborated on in the rest of the Torah. ]

      Some bible scholars believe this is the covenant found in verse 10. Jesus has replaced this covenant. But we learn from God that the whole house of Israel shall be saved at the return of our Lord Jesus. (God only abandons them for a while, to makes His name known in the gentiles). God shall make them a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. Since this event is still waiting for the fulfillment, it doesn’t seem like this is the covenant shall be broken in verse 10.

      Concerning Davidic covenant, a King and a Messiah shall come from David’s lineage. The King and the Messiah is Jesus who shall rule over all the nations, This can’t be the covenant God shall break.

      Since Zechariah is silent regarding which covenant shall be broken by God, back in 2009, I have interpreted this covenant to be the covenant God makes with the church. This covenant shall have a time expiry issue, that is, when God calls the church home, that will be the time God breaks the covenant with the church.

      And immediately after this covenant is broken, God foretells the appearance of the foolish shepherd from verse 15 to 17. Many of us agree that the foolish shepherd is Anti Christ.

      The sequence of the three prophesied events in Zechariah 11.

      1/ Three shepherds being cut off in one month.

      2/ God calls the church home by breaking the covenant with the church.

      3/ Appearance of the foolish shepherd / AC.

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    • #9788
      2ndcoming
      Participant

      Geri7, here’s a couple of posts for you to read.

      Zechariah 11:10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. 11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.

      The staff God holds is the church. God calls the staff “Beauty” because this is how the church is seen by God. “cut it asunder” means God is perfecting the church since it’s establishment in first century. When the staff is broken in one day, that is, when God calls the church home, the poor of the flock which is “us” shall know that this is the word of Jesus. He kept his promise by not letting us into the tribulation.

      Immediately after God breaks the first staff Church, God turns His attention to the second staff which is Israel.

      Zechariah 11:14 Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

      “cut asunder mine other staff” means God shall perfect His people Israel in the tribulation, to make Jesus’ name known to them so that the house of Israel shall be saved.

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    • #9789
      2ndcoming
      Participant

      Zechariah 11: 11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.

      “Waited upon me”

      Since the first century, there have been many generations which has waited for Jesus’ return. We are the generation which has the privilege for “waited upon me” to occur !!!

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    • #9790
      2ndcoming
      Participant

      Yohanan, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

      After Paul gave this mystery of rapture to Thessalonians, he went on to say “But of the times and the seasons”. We need to understand that “But of the times and the seasons” is a connection to the rapture previously written by Paul.

      “For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them”  Paul went on to say when people are feeling security and peaceful, rapture shall come upon them as a sudden destruction, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

      “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. ” “That day” is referred to the day sudden destruction comes, that is, rapture. Paul said that day should not take us by surprise, and overtake us as a thief. He knew there would come some warning from God before sudden destruction/rapture comes upon people. He didn’t know what that warning was in his time. But now through the examination of Zechariah 11, we know the warning is the three shepherds war which should happen prior to rapture.

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    • #9791
      Geri7
      Participant

      2nd Coming,

      I have “brain fog” right now and I really want to call it “snow fog” because the barometric air pressure is great and I have a headache … in layman’s terms can you explain when these wars occur in your timeline?  All I need is before the rapture, after the rapture and before the tribulation starts, etc.  And does the 3 Shepherd’s war overlap into any of these other wars or is it completely separate from them?

      3 Shepherd’s War
      Jeremiah 49 Elam bow broken
      Psalm 83
      Isaiah 17
      Ezekiel 38-39

      Note:  Sean Osborne at Eschatology Today believes Jeremiah 49 can happen very soon … do you feel that way?  Or are you looking at the 3 Shepherd’s war first to occur?

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    • #9792
      2ndcoming
      Participant

      Geri7,

      the three shepherds are Lebanon (where Hezbollah is), Syria and Jordan. We also find them in the 4th transgression in Amos 1-2, Psalm 83. Basically they are the same war.

      Concerning the season of this war, according to Isaiah 16:8-9, and Jeremiah 48:32, this war shall happen in summer.

      Isaiah 16:8 For the fields of Heshbon languish, and the vine of Sibmah: the lords of the heathen have broken down the principal plants thereof, they are come even unto Jazer, they wandered through the wilderness: her branches are stretched out, they are gone over the sea.
      9 Therefore I will bewail with the weeping of Jazer the vine of Sibmah: I will water thee with my tears, O Heshbon, and Elealeh: for the shouting for thy summer fruits and for thy harvest is fallen.

      Isaiah 16 is an oracle against Moab which is modern day Jordan. Jordan is one of the three shepherds in Zechariah 11 and one of the accomplice in Amos 1-2, and Psalm 83.

      Key words are ” for thy summer fruits and for thy harvest is fallen.” It places the timing of the three shepherds war in summer. We also find this is true by studying Jeremiah 48:32.

      Jeremiah 48:32 O vine of Sibmah, I will weep for thee with the weeping of Jazer: thy plants are gone over the sea, they reach even to the sea of Jazer: the spoiler is fallen upon thy summer fruits and upon thy vintage.

      Again. Jeremiah 48 is another oracle against Moab. Key words are “the spoiler is fallen upon thy summer fruits and upon thy vintage.” This also places three shepherds war in summer.

      Take 2020 to 2027 timeline for example.

      By May/June     Three shepherds war/Psalm 83/4th transgression breaks out. God cuts them off in one month. This takes us to July, when their summer fruits are fallen.

      July Rapture

      Immediately after rapture, appearance of Anti Christ on world stage. God foretold his fate, that is, he shall receive a sword wound which results in his both arms wither, and right eye dried.

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    • #9794
      2ndcoming
      Participant

      Geri7,

      Elam prophecy shall be fulfilled during the battle of Gog/Magog. After the rapture in this summer, seeing US and EU crippled by rapture, Russia together with Turkey and Iran launch attack against Israel. This battle of Gog/Magog takes place in this summer also, very likely begins in this August. God shall send earthquake and brimstone to them. Earthquake should rattle  the land beneath their nuclear facilities. Multiple nuclear explosions occur in Iran. Because of nuclear contamination, Iran becomes uninhabitable. They shall be scattered all over the nations.

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    • #9797
      Yohanan
      Moderator

      We know the season, but as the Lord Jesus Himself said: Mt 24:36  But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. And He wasn’t referring to the Second Coming, which can be accurately assessed 1260 days the Abomination of Desecration takes place, in the exact same way the Pharisees knew the exact day He would enter Jerusalem in their day.

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      • #9802
        Geri7
        Participant

        I reckon the Jews that flee to Petra … if they are wearing a watch that also shows not only the time but the date … perhaps … they can figure out when the 2nd coming is.  But what if, their watch battery stops working?

        Also will the Jews know the tribulation is only for 7 years?  How do they get this knowledge … from the 2 witnesses and 144,000 ministry?  Perhaps they will be in the dark about the whole time frame of the calamities?   :whistle:

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    • #9798
      2ndcoming
      Participant

      God has left Daniel’s 69 weeks for the Jews to calculate the exact day of their Messiah entering Jerusalem, but they have ignored it. Simeon knew that before his death, he would see the Messiah. Anna the prophetess who gave thanks to God, spoke of God to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem after Jesus was born . God either leaves a clue, or uses the Holy Spirit to guide people to recognize what is going to happen immediately. The rapture is no exception.  There should be some warning and events coming from God before the rapture.

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    • #9799
      Yohanan
      Moderator

      The staff God holds is the church. God calls the staff “Beauty” because this is how the church is seen by God. “cut it asunder” means God is perfecting the church since it’s establishment in first century. When the staff is broken in one day, that is, when God calls the church home, the poor of the flock which is “us” shall know that this is the word of Jesus. He kept his promise by not letting us into the tribulation.

      I have to disagree with this. When Zechariah breaks the staff Beauty, he is annulling the covenant that restrained the Gentiles from oppressing God’s people, Israel. The Church was not formed until the Book of Acts, not during the time of Zechariah.

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    • #9800
      Yohanan
      Moderator

      The rapture is no exception.  There should be some warning and events coming from God before the rapture.

      Not according to the King of kings and it is Him that I will believe, not man’s interpretations.

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    • #9803
      2ndcoming
      Participant

      You wrote ” When Zechariah breaks the staff Beauty, he is annulling the covenant that restrained the Gentiles from oppressing God’s people, Israel”

      Zechariah became a prophet in 520 BC. According to what you said, the restraint was lifted off, there should be more oppression against Israel from that time on.

      We learn from history since 520 BC, the oppression against Israel has been stopped. When they came back to their land in 538 BC, they were bothered and oppressed by Samaritans when they tried to build their second temple. They stopped the work for 18 years. God appeared to Haggai in 520 BC, and urged them to complete their work on the second temple. Motivated by God, Darius agreed and gave decree to people not to bother their work. I don’t see oppression against them like what you have suggested

      Also, prior to the breaking of covenant with all the people, God said he would cut off three shepherds in one month. Can you justify what God said by quoting historical and biblical evidence if this is the case?

      And immediately after the breaking of covenant, a foolish shepherd appears. Most of us agree this foolish shepherd is Anti Christ. How do you justify his appearance in the 6th century BC?

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    • #9805
      2ndcoming
      Participant

      “Not according to the King of kings and it is Him that I will believe, not man’s interpretations.”

      Has Jesus ever said there would be no warning prior to rapture?

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    • #9806
      2ndcoming
      Participant

      You wrote “The Church was not formed until the Book of Acts, not during the time of Zechariah.”

      The church is prophesied in Genesis 3:15, And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

      Is there anything wrong for God to prophesy the church in Zechariah 11, since he has also prophesied the coming of the church in Genesis 3?

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    • #9809
      Yohanan
      Moderator

      Has Jesus ever said there would be no warning prior to rapture?

      Jesus said we would know the season but if He doesn’t know the day or the hour then how can He give us a warning?

      And immediately after the breaking of covenant, a foolish shepherd appears. Most of us agree this foolish shepherd is Anti Christ. How do you justify his appearance in the 6th century BC?

      I’m not sure who “most of us” are but of the 11 commentaries I own none of them agree with you. They state that the three shepherds in Zechariah 11 are ruler over Israel. To read into this verse that they mean a prophesied coming of war is not supported by the text. While the Anitchrist is a foolish shepherd, that is not what this text is referring to.

      The two staffs in the text represent God’s desire to show grace to His people, and to unite Judah and Israel. It is not the church. We can easily see that God shows His grace and mercy to the church, but this was accomplished by the sacrifice of His Son.

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      • #9815
        Geri7
        Participant

        I’m giving you a 1/2 like Yohanan because the first 3 sentences is what I’m still on the fence with.  “No man knows the day or hour refers to the rapture” ….  If someone can show me a verse that the future rabbis or Jews know the tribulation will last for 7 years so they will be counting down the days for their calamities to end …. then, I might climb back over the fence that this is referring to the rapture vs 2nd coming. ;-)

         

        Here’s my 2 cents …

        I just found this interesting post on Millennium weekend.org forum board regarding “no man knows the day or the hour” … this guy ironically goes by the name …  John H. ;-)   He believes its a Jewish Idiom that Jesus gave to His disciples and says Jesus is actually telling them when the end shall come.  Its on … drum roll please … “Feast of Trumpets”. :good:  So now I’m starting to climb that chain link fence over to it referring to “perhaps” the rapture after all. :whistle:

        But now the mystery gets deeper and the million dollar question is … will Feast of Trumpets be the rapture day or the start of the tribulation period? B-)

         

        Millennium weekend.org forum board
        Per John H.
        09-21-2014, 05:25 PM

        “No man knows the day or hour” – a Jewish Idiom of the Rapture?

        Jesus was sitting with His Disciples, on the Mount of Olives, and gave them a series of end time prophecies and clues about His return!

        Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

        Matthew 24:35 “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”

        Matthew 24:36) “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”

        Jesus seems to tell them that they cannot know the day or hour of His return because He does not even know it? Some scholars claim that He is using a Jewish Idiom and is referencing a certain day that they would know, as Jewish men?  

        Long ago before the Jews understood Astronomy and could pinpoint the arrival of the first new moon of the year, they would estimate it within a two day window. All Jewish Feast Days began on a Full Moon, except for Rosh Hashanah, which began with the beginning of the New Moon. Thus, they would send two priests out to watch for it and report upon seeing the first sliver of the New Moon, to the Sanhedrin, who would sanctify it and then all of the future feasts and festivals would be set! So,due to the ambiguity of exactly when Rosh would start, it was also called, “the day no man knows the day or hour”! So, some think Jesus was referring to a future Rosh. It is said that He has fulfilled the first 3 Feast Days (Passover, First Fruits & Pentecost) and will fill the remaining (Rosh, Yom Kippur & Feast of Tabernacles) with His return? And Rosh is the next Day in the succession!

        Also, of interest is the text of Matthew 24:27, “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

        As soon as the new moon was sighted by the two witnesses, the Sanhedrin would send runners from the east to the west with signal lights to be lit on the high mountains to inform the people to begin counting the New Year from the month and the Feast of Trumpets. They were said to run “like lightning“! Is this phrase, “like lightning” telling us that the start of Rosh is associated with “the coming of the Son of man, Jesus, our Lord and Savior? I lean toward this belief, as do many others? But be sure that I am not saying Jesus will return on this Rosh!  However, I think it is possible (of which I am not dogmatic) that He may return on some future Rosh! (Note: He posted this back on 9/21/2014)

        See the following Blood Red Moon Pie Chart, showing the coincidence of these events with Jewish Feast Days! The second Blood Red Moon will occur approximately 2 weeks after Rosh, this year, which is on September 24-25th. Regardless, of how soon we true believers are raptured, as JD Farag of Calvary Chapel, Hawaii would say, “we may be closer to the rapture than you think”?

        – Fair Use –

        So I’m curious to know people’s thoughts on this revealing info.  Does it sound kosher?   :feedback

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    • #9810
      David W. Roche
      Moderator

      https://biblehub.com/hebrew/haammim_5971.htm

      Who are “all the people”?  In context, that means the nations of the world, and is not the Church.  I see not even the slightest hint of the rapture in the text, as the breaking of the staff Beauty occurs prior to the betrayal and crucifixion of Jesus.  Then the bonds of the Jews are broken by the dispersal into the nations, and finally a false shepherd emerges.  That would be the Antichrist.

      RITAN encourages speculation, even on difficult passages.  Just remember that a text without a context is a pretext.  The Mods don’t know everything; we do try to steer people in the right direction.  So a large dose of humility is required.

      It helps a lot to provide evidence to back up one’s opinions.  So many times, we’ve had to deal with those who would dismiss the work of scholars as “the opinion of men,” while promoting their own opinions as the pure, unvarnished Word of God.  In this case, there doesn’t appear to be any “there” there.  I’d love to be able to see a veiled hint of the rapture in the passage, but I cannot for the life of me see any such thing.

       

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    • #9811
      David W. Roche
      Moderator

      Genesis 3:15 is about the coming of the Redeemer, and does not hint at all concerning the Church.

       

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    • #9813
      tenderreed
      Participant

      Indeed David.

      When I had my open vision of the world ending and seeing the Heavens and the Earth being rolled up as a scroll, I after the fact was bummed that the vision did not concern itself directly with the Rapture.  Apparently what I viewed was a little further along God’s timeline!

      But then again, we all know that the Rapture and the Second Coming does pre-date the New Heaven and New Earth.  Not that saw those, but did witness the destruction of the old order of life!

      So all things in God’s good timing!

      TR

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    • #9819
      2ndcoming
      Participant

      Yohanan,  I thought you don’t like men’s interpretation, but now you are quoting bible commentary? Lol.

      I read those bible commentary from time to time. They are good in interpreting new testament, Paul’s letter and link events to biblical history. But when it comes to old testament prophecy, they didn’t do a very good job. It is because they lived hundred years before Israel rebirth as a nation in 1948. They didn’t get to see Israel come back alive. Majority of them believe in Replacement Theology. With that in mind, God did not open their eyes and allowed them to see a clearer end time picture. We shouldn’t follow their traditional view of Israel, especially events involved with end time.

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    • #9822
      tenderreed
      Participant

      Point well taken.  We can however fall towards the other extreme as well.

      God was kind and gracious for giving us His prophetic word, for sure!  But it does seem to me that a balance is needed.  IE:  staying away from dogmatic interpretations.

      It is enough to say that we are living in the end times, and we continue to see His prophetic word be fulfilled.  As to how that specifically manifests itself on a daily basis I’ll leave to the Lord.  The other aspect of balance, is just simply trusting God, IMHO!

      Indeed teaching and interpretation of God’s word has and can take on a life of it’s own.  That said, we would do well to remember that it is His Word!

      TR

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    • #9825
      2ndcoming
      Participant

      David,

      You are correct that “all the people” are not limited to Israel , but all the nations, includes different kindred, races. Question is, what kind of covenant has God made with “all the people” in history? Noahic covenant ? Not likely because God cannot break this covenant. The only covenant I can think of is the salvation God has made with “all the people” through Jesus Christ. It’s for all the people,  and is available to all the people. Many of us understand this covenant as the new covenant. Even though God didn’t use the word “church” explicitly, but we see the shadow of the church in that verse.

      You suggest the breaking of the staff Beauty occurs prior to the betrayal and crucifixion of Jesus. You also agree that “which I had made with all the people” has nothing to do with Israel because you said all the people are all the nations.

      And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. 11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD

      What kind of covenant has God broken with all the nations prior to the betrayal of Jesus and crucifixion? Also, there is no biblical and historical evidence of Lebanon, Syria and Jordan being cut off by God in one month. And the appearance of Anti Christ the foolish shepherd is still in future. Why would God place his appearance immediately after the betrayal and crucifixion of Jesus?

      When we come to interpret scripture, we should never put ourselves into boxes. And in this case, try to explain away scripture with historical events. Prophecy points events to future. If they have already happened, there should be historical evidence to confirm it. But in the case of Zechariah 11, three shepherds are cut off by God, God breaks a covenant with all the people, and the appearance of Anti Christ, we haven’t found their fulfillment in history. Why can’t we find them in future?

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    • #9826
      2ndcoming
      Participant

      Genesis 3:15 does hint the coming of Messiah and the church era.

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    • #9827
      2ndcoming
      Participant

      Yohanan, going back to “Jesus doesn’t know the day and hour”, I have to disagree with you that Jesus doesn’t know the day and hour at all.  While he said those words, he was in a human body. But after his ascension to heaven, he knows when the rapture is.

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      • #9830
        Geri7
        Participant

        2nd Coming,

        Check out my post … about 8 back on this thread … I came across  an interesting theory that the disciples were not left clueless … they understood exactly what Jesus meant by “no man knows the day or hour”.  Some watchers believe its an idiom pointing to Feast of Trumpets. His disciples would have known what He meant since they were familiar with the practice of determining the start date of that particular feast day.

        _________

        This is how it was explained …

        All Jewish Feast Days began on a Full Moon, except for Rosh Hashanah, which began with the beginning of the New Moon. Thus, they would send two priests out to watch for it and report upon seeing the first sliver of the New Moon, to the Sanhedrin, who would sanctify it and then all of the future feasts and festivals would be set. So,due to the ambiguity of exactly when Rosh would start, it was also called, “the day no man knows the day or hour”! So, some think Jesus was referring to a future Rosh.

        Also, of interest is the text of Matthew 24:27, “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

        As soon as the new moon was sighted by the two witnesses, the Sanhedrin would send runners from the east to the west with signal lights to be lit on the high mountains to inform the people to begin counting the New Year from the month and the Feast of Trumpets. They were said to run “like lightning“!

        _______

        So if this theory is correct … then is Feast of Trumpets considered the rapture day or the starting point of the tribulation period?   :whistle:

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    • #9828
      David W. Roche
      Moderator

      2nd Coming, have you ever heard this story:

      As a senior citizen was driving down the freeway, his car phone rang. Answering, he heard his wife’s voice urgently warning him, “Herman, I just heard on the news that there’s a car going the wrong way on 280. Please be careful!”

      “It’s not just one car, ” said Herman.  “It’s hundreds of them!”

      Think about that.

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      • #9831
        Geri7
        Participant

        You got me thinking of that hilarious scene from the movie “Planes, Trains and Automobiles” … :mdrmdr:

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    • #9832
      David W. Roche
      Moderator

      So if this theory is correct … then is Feast of Trumpets considered the rapture day or the starting point of the tribulation period?

      Or it might be the time for the Second Coming, which would place the rapture 2520 days prior to that, assuming there is no gap between the rapture and the start of the Tribulation.  Of course, I might be mistaken.

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      • #9842
        Geri7
        Participant

        Good point.  I forgot about the 2nd Coming could fit on that day as well.  Then Yom Kippur – Sheep/Goat judgment and Feast of Tabernacles starts to Millennium period?

        For years I just focused on Feast of Trumpets being the high watch rapture date.  Then after hearing J.R. Church/Gary Stearman give the case for Pentecost  … I was happy to have 2 holidays a year vs just the 1 to get excited about.  And now … I’m for any high watch day if it means to get out of this world!   B-)

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    • #9833
      2ndcoming
      Participant

      There are two different types of white robe treatment in Book of Revelation.

      Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them;

      They are the raptured saints, not tribulation saints. They belong to church era. They come to Jesus by faith, not by seeing any evidence, that is, they never saw Christ in their livelihood, but come to Christ based on their faith. Their reward is a white robe “given” to them in heaven.

      Revelation 7:13 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, “and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb”.

      These saints come out from tribulation. They are the left behind who come to Christ, but fail to keep their life due to earthquake, wars, famine, natural disaster. They die and go straight to heaven. But instead of being rewarded with a white robe, they need to wash their robe, and make them white in the blood of Jesus. It is because they come to faith by witnessing the evidence, by witnessing the tribulation event foretold by God. They need to keep their salvation, maintain it, by keeping their white robe clean and washed. or else , they may lose their salvation.

      There is no more once saved, always saved in tribulation. This is why Jesus fore warns them” if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” “He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life” ” be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life”. The salvation in tribulation is quite different from the salvation we are facing today.

      The reason I bring this up, is because Zechariah 11:10.

      10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.

      I have suggested this breaking of covenant is the removal of church from earth. God makes this covenant possible with “all the people” on earth through the blood of Jesus Christ. After the removal of the church, the blood covenant is still available in tribulation. But the nature of blood covenant has been changed, They have to be responsible for their own salvation. They need to overcome and endure, so that Jesus will not blot out their names from book of life.

      It does seem after God breaks the covenant in Zechariah 11 by removing the church, God enters a different type of covenant with people in tribulation. Jesus’ blood still can save them, but they are responsible for their own salvation. It’s kind of going back to the old testament era when people need to keep their faith on right course.

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      • #9840
        Geri7
        Participant

        Do you think the tribulation saints will be martyred globally around the same time … perhaps in the spring since they will be holding palms in their hands up in heaven?

         

        Revelation 7:9

        After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

         

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      • #9844
        2ndcoming
        Participant

        The tribulation saints comes from all nations. Jesus says they shall be afflicted based on their faith. John saw the tribulation saints before Jesus opens the 7th seal. Since I believe the half hour silence represents the first half of tribulation, the saints in Revelation 7:9 occupy the first half tribulation. Consider the palms they hold. I don’t see any specific meaning for now.

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    • #9834
      2ndcoming
      Participant

      David,

      When you see the three shepherds war happen, don’t forget that I have told you so. This is also the joyful moment for you.

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    • #9835
      2ndcoming
      Participant

      Geri7,

      I heard your argument before. My belief is “no one knows the day and hour” has nothing to do with feast of trumpet. With modern technology, the exact hour and minutes of moon rise can be known ahead of time.  I have attached a link.

      https://www.timeanddate.com/moon/israel/jerusalem?month=1&year=2020

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      • #9853
        Geri7
        Participant

        2nd Coming,

        Yes, computer technology is a helpful tool to pin point when the full moons will occur so the holidays are marked on the yearly calendars.  But the thing is … the Jews still go by their traditions … they still require 2 witnesses (priests) to look up with the naked eye to visible see the full moon before they give the announcement they “saw it” and then that kicks off the celebration of Feast of Trumpets.  I recall back … (I think it was 2014 or 2015?) there was total cloud coverage (or it was very foggy) so Feast of Trumpets got delayed for a day or two even though our calendars indicated it should start on such and such day … until the 2 eye witnesses see the full moon, that feast celebration does not happen.

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    • #9838
      Blake7
      Participant

      Well, from the time I was 3 years old blessed to have a Christian mother, we never left the house without saying the 121 psalms, she taught me to watch and be ready. No date, every day. Looking up, all my life I could not count the days and nights to early morning looking for the blessed hope of His coming. Dates were never set or ever even discussed.  Taught to watch and be ready, never upset or depressed as time has gone by, that’s right near 60 years now. I spent a wonderful afternoon looking up in prayer this very afternoon. I’m so happy for and praise God for my brothers and sisters that have a good, as a healthy, a home, financially secure life. I however am disabled, in 24/7 pain even with epidurals for pain as well as major pain killers due to multiple severe health problems, no home of my own , a 12 by 12 room that cost almost half my hand to mouth finance , medical bills and supplement and medication taking a lot of the rest, what food I can afford. The grace and love of our Savior always meeting all my needs, living this way for 15 years now. I have been ridiculed by many for my faith, mainly due to what they see as my circumstance . Never angry never bitter, always knowing and believing God is in control. Godly wisdom VS mans interpretations, well after 60 years all I found I need is faith, if I need to have wisdom it comes from the Holy Spirit, God takes care of the rest as long as I let Him and stay out of His way with what my mind may think or come up with. When I get out of His word my mind can go all over. I try not to do that, I’m human I fail many times. As long as I keep my eyes and mind on Him thru His word given to us I find peace even in dire circumstance. All I know is His love, this world has nothing for me. I am content knowing my eternity will be with Jesus no pain no needs that are not supplied. Even now by no less than outright miracles I have had a roof over my head, great medical care, food, medications all I needed but not much by earthly standards. But this will pass and eternity with Christ is coming, maybe before I can post this ,maybe after I’m in the ground. But Gods wisdom has always been there taking care of me no matter mine or anyone’s interpretation . My love in Christ to all here and all my family in and thru the blood of Jesus Christ. Do not worry He will be here right on time.

      YBIC Blake

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    • #9839
      David W. Roche
      Moderator

      2nd Coming, the problem is not that the commentaries might be “old.”  The problem is that you don’t appear to listen to a n y o n e other than your own voice.  Those commentaries often used sound reasoning and careful analysis to get to the meaning of the text.  From what I can tell, you rely upon your own private interpretations and dismiss the thoughts of others as meaningless.  This is an ongoing pattern in your posts.  If you are going to make extraordinary claims, you need to have extraordinary evidence, not simply assertions based upon your personal preferences.  Stating something arbitrarily does not change it from being an opinion to being established as factual.

      For example, you repeatedly reference the “Three Shepherds War,” in spite of there being no mention of “war” in the passage.  What evidence do you have of this being a war, when the identity of the three shepherds mentioned is undetermined?  Please do not come back and tell us it has to be so because you can’t see it being anything else.  That is NOT evidence; that is unwarranted speculation.  It is not exegesis; it is eisegesis.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exegesis

      Exegesis (/ˌɛksɪˈdʒiːsɪs/; from the Greek ἐξήγησις from ἐξηγεῖσθαι, “to lead out”) is a critical explanation or interpretation of a text, particularly a religious text. Traditionally the term was used primarily for work with the Bible; however, in modern usage biblical exegesis is used for greater specificity to distinguish it from any other broader critical text explanation.

      / ˌaɪ sɪˈdʒi sɪs / PHONETIC RESPELLING noun, plural eis·e·ge·ses [ahy-si- jee -seez] /ˌaɪ sɪˈdʒi siz/. an interpretation, especially of Scripture, that expresses the interpreter’s own ideas, bias, or the like, rather than the meaning of the text.

      If you wish to be taken seriously, you need to provide something more than empty assertions pulled out of your hat.

      It’s fine to label a view as your private opinion which people can either take or leave.  But it would really be appreciated if you could provide some linguistic, historical or logical basis for your claims.

      That is what helps move a discussion forward, rather than a dogmatic pronouncement of a private view that lacks adequate evidence.

      Example: Genesis 3:15 does hint the coming of Messiah and the church era.

      Only the first part is true.  The church era is NOT even hinted at in the verse.  The Church was not revealed until much later down the line.  I’m not sure what words or expressions you are inferring as requiring a body of believers set apart in that verse.  I can only see that as your personal interpretation.  Yet I am without doubt you will come back with something no one else would have ever associated with it.

      [quote]Why would God place his appearance immediately after the betrayal and crucifixion of Jesus?

      When we come to interpret scripture, we should never put ourselves into boxes. And in this case, try to explain away scripture with historical events. Prophecy points events to future. If they have already happened, there should be historical evidence to confirm it. But in the case of Zechariah 11, three shepherds are cut off by God, God breaks a covenant with all the people, and the appearance of Anti Christ, we haven’t found their fulfillment in history. Why can’t we find them in future?[/quote]

      Already covered.  Sometimes the fulfillment of verses can be many, many years apart.  It is only your bias which demands they happen in a particular time frame.  Some events that were prophesied have already been fulfilled and are NOT future events.  Some events have been lost to history and we might not have a clear understanding of how they were accomplished.  That does not demand they refer to future events.  Reasonable people understand this.

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    • #9843
      2ndcoming
      Participant

      David,

      Before I post my though on scripture, I always do many research to see the historical background of the verses, and view many bible commentary to see their thought. When their view could not explain scripture, or sometimes rather weak, then I would stop following them.  I don’t like men’s interpretation either unless they are strong enough to convince me with historical events and the background.

      We must study bible prophecy seriously and adopt a pragmatic attitude. If the scriptures and historical events do not cooperate, we must find another way for a better interpretation. The reasonable approach is to look for other scripture for help. Take three shepherds as an example, we can’t find the word war, but we found Lebanon, Syria and Jordan in Psalm 83 and the 4th transgression. They fought against Israel. God says he shall send fire to Damascus, Tyre, Jordan, and Gaza in the 4th transgression. This line up with  God’s saying that he shall cut them off in one month. Combining all these prophecies, we can conclude that there will be a future war against Israel. The accomplice are Jordan, Lebanon and Syria, the three shepherds we find in Zechariah 11. And this war can only last one month. Verses are connected throughout bible. By connecting all the dots it gives a complete picture of what God intends us to know. This is God’s mystery.

      Concerning the covenant God will break, I have researched on all the major covenants God has made with Israel. I found none of them can be broken by God. And your argument of the staff is rather weak, it doesn’t satisfy me.  When there is no evidence to support the event, we look at history for help.  God did make a covenant with all the people before. It was in 32 AD through the blood of Jesus Christ. We call it a new covenant. Also, God calls the staff Beauty. What could appear Beauty to God in Judah and Israel time? Nothing. This is why God kept sending them prophets, to warn them. When we can’t find any evidence in history to support the word Beauty, then equating Beauty as the church makes sense, because this is how the church is seen by God, Beauty.

      Back to studying prophecy and the attitude, I will not reject the explanations of others, if they make sense. Examples are Bill Salus Psalm 83, he is right to separate it from Ezekiel 38, Some people have suggested Anti Christ comes from Rome. Based on my research, they are also correct. You can’t accuse me of not listening to other people’s opinion. You always oppose to a new theory that I put forward. I think your objection is based on other people’s opinion and the bible commentary. Are they 100% correct? Why don’t you do your own research, and really think hard about the context? You should be like me, look else where in scripture to find the support and connection. Sometimes reading too much on bible commentary and other people’s opinion can blind your thought. You should also be more open minded to different theory when the theory find supports from other scripture. All I did from Zechariah 11 is quoting other verses to support my view. Did you find me quoting any outside sources?

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    • #9845
      tenderreed
      Participant

      I might site for instance the prophecy of Joel.  For at the church’s inception the Holy Spirit was given.  People spoke in other tongues.  But many agree that this was only partially fulfilled.

      With old men dreaming dreams and young men having visions this seems to always have been the case, also as it is today.  And like much prophecy as David alludes to, some prophecies are fulfilled over long periods of time.  Also likewise with much prophecy there is an immediate fulfillment but it is also understand that a secondary and more complete fulfillment is hidden somewhere in the future.

      Indeed it is prudent to be cautionary especially when dealing with something as subjective as God’s prophetic word.  Though once fulfilled there can be no disagreement.

      As the Lord has promised, every jot and tittle of scripture shall indeed be fulfilled.  But as for peering into the future, well that’s still just speculation, leaving no room for dogmatism and division!

      We continue to study to show to show ourselves approved, not to prove others wrong.

      TR

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    • #9846
      tenderreed
      Participant

      We study to show ourselves approved at rightly dividing the word of God.  But future prophetic events can only be divided by God, and prophets given words from the Lord, IMHO!  Anything else is simply gambling with the Word!

      In many instances there are simply too many variables to be dogmatic, besides that’s something only the Lord can do!

      We can agree to disagree because of grace and love.

      TR

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    • #9858
      Humbly Irrelevant
      Participant

      Wow — I step away for a few days and this post is still active!

      I would just like to say to all my Pre-Trib brethren that I was truly attempting to reach out to a very small number of people who are babes in the Word or confused about the Rapture conjecture they hear/read continuously. I was not looking to stir a tense debate.  Dates have been set in the past and have disappointed those of us (including me) who are strong in the Word and are every day “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13).  The Word tells us that it WILL happen and we can’t wait.  We would absolutely LOVE TO KNOW the specific day ahead of time.  Whether we will get a warning in advance or we will be taken up “in the blink of an eye” without any warning, my opinion is that we won’t know until it happens one way or the other.  Thus, we can’t speak with absolute certainty unless God has absolutely, positively, unquestionably, undoubtedly, unequivocally, and without any uncertainty spoken to us like he did the prophets of old.

      I very-much appreciate that Yohanan understood that I was not trying to be divisive and that my point “was not that watching for “high watch dates” was wrong but the way some people chase them, holding to man’s teaching vs. sound Biblical doctrine.”  Thank you for that Yohanan!

      I still get excited when I read sound postulation about possible “dates” derived from Biblical Exegesis (as was well-articulated by David Roche above) that coincide with current happenings in the human environment — political alliances, military alliances, potential treaties, heavenly occurrences of eclipses, formations, etc., etc., etc.  When things look like the should happen in our mortal eyes we get very excited; however, all too often in the past, we become just as disappointed when the event that absolutely looked like it would occur ended up not happening.  Looking for the Rapture Date is a roller-coaster ride that may not end until it is upon us without us even knowing it.  We are definitely in the season, and know that it WILL happen soon, but we may not know exactly when.  A simple analogy is like when a hurricane is forming over the ocean, we know that it will hit land within days in the future — but we still don’t know the exact minute it will roll in to land or if it will take a sudden turn and bypass our location.  Only when the strong winds hits our area do we know for sure that the hurricane is upon us for absolute surety.

      Geri, Tammie, David, Yohanan, 2ndcoming, and tenderreed — you all have posed some very intelligent, researched, and interesting hypothesis that may or may not be the answer.  We just will never know what is going to happen before it happens because we are not God.

      Like David said above in his post, you cannot “rely upon your own private interpretations and dismiss the thoughts of others as meaningless“.  Amen!  We can share our thoughts, our research, our understanding, our postulations — but we can’t be claim that our what we think or say is indisputable.

      A good summation for all this is how tenderreed concluded his last comment:  “We can agree to disagree because of grace and love“.  In  the essentials, UNITY; in doubtful matters, LIBERTY; in all things, CHARITY.

      God bless you all!

      Humbly

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    • #9859
      Geri7
      Participant

      LOL yeah Humbly … this thread was the ”go to” thread for the past few days. :yes:    So many heated fights :stinkerbell:  I mean great discussions! :good:   I enjoyed reading the knowledge that so many of you long time watchers have … I gained more knowledge!  Even though … some are wrong in their theories … just kidding, just kidding … its truly is a wait and see how it all unfolds.  Glad we can all agree on this … we don’t have long to wait!  Right, siblings?  We can at least agree on that fact.  B-)

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    • #9862
      Humbly Irrelevant
      Participant

      Totally agree Geri!

      And Blake7, I am so sorry to hear about your pain and discomfort.  Hopefully that will be history soon.

      I appreciate your strength to be able to faithfully state: “But Gods wisdom has always been there taking care of me no matter mine or anyone’s interpretation . My love in Christ to all here and all my family in and thru the blood of Jesus Christ.

      May God bless you with a shinier crown in Heaven for all of your travails on earth.

      Humbly

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    • #10330
      Geri7
      Participant

      Aha I found it!  The subject of  “No man knows the day or hour doesn’t refer to the rapture but for the 2nd coming”  came up again on the RITA facebook side and this time I copied Thomas Maples view.  Its a good one … here it is:

      “The whole no one knows the day and the hour don’t pertain to the rapture, but the second coming.  As I’ve mentioned countless times before, the word “know” in that verse means able to perceive.  The placing of it in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 after the Lord turns off the light of the sun and the moon correlates nicely to Joel 2, Zechariah 14 Isaiah 13 about the Day of Judgment of the Lord.  Considering the next Feast of Trumpets (Trumpets being blown when the Lord’s people go to war) also works nicely since it begins at the first sighting of the first sliver of the new moon.  Which won’t be able to be perceived since the light of the sun and the moon are darkened.  Not by mankind, not by the angels. But God always knows.

      This is not saying that date setting is forbidden.  It’s saying that when the moment comes, they won’t be able to see the day or hour that it comes.  From a practical viewpoint, there’s no sense being adamant about any particular date not because it’s forbidden, but because He didn’t give us enough information to figure it out.  Which has kept the entire Church on its toes since the early days when even the Apostles seemed to expect His return imminently.”

      – Fair Use –

      ———————-

      So call me “fickle Fiona” I’m climbing back over the fence to the green pasture side once more. :yes:   I believe we shall get a heads up confirmation of the rapture date :mail:  … we all just need to be very alert and watchful for the clues. B-)

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    • #10336
      MyWhiteStone
      Moderator

      Thom says, “… Which has kept the entire Church on its toes…”  Most of the Church today are evidently able to sleep well standing on their tippy-toes.  A good trick. :whistle: :yes: :unsure:

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      • #10342
        Geri7
        Participant

        Yeah … and sadly some others in the  Church morphed into a “modern day Lot” and have tap danced over to the bright lights of the mega Laodicean “churches” to be entertained by the circus shows. :negative:

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    • #10354
      tenderreed
      Participant

      Stupid is as stupid does!  Again, God can heal all manner of disease, sickness, illness and sometimes death.  But He can’t heal stupid.

      TR

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