God's Sovereignty — A Minority Opinion? Weigh in here?

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    • #2020

        I don’t know if this is helpful, but it is something I have posed among friends many times. It’s kind of a logical tautology. A kind of simple truth table: If A is true and B is true, then C has to be true.

        In this case A states “God is sovereign!”  B states “God loves me far more than I am capable of understanding!”  Therefore, C concludes “Whatever is happening to me is the most loving thing that could possibly be happening.”

        I’m not saying that this conclusion “C” is soothing to someone who’s hurting, (“feelings” are right-brained kinds of things, not “logical” left-brain kinds of things like this), but I personally contend that whatever is happening to me is the most loving thing that can be. And when it either hurts or really feels good I contend I have no clue about what mysterious puzzle piece fits that results in this present personal reality.  But there are a bunch of puzzle pieces laid in place by One whose complexity can never be mapped.  Way way more complex than a mapped human DNA molecule, for example.  The fact that I lack the visibility of His intervening perspective to understand “Why??? or How can this be???” does not negate the truth of my conclusion “C.”

        Consider Job’s case for example.  There are something like 36 chapters of “…this lousy situation simply cannot be right nor just!” These 36 though are followed by four chapters where God essentially explains to Job (paraphrasing here), “Even if I told you Job, you are incapable of understanding.” God’s implication: “I AM.”

        Painfully Job, and we as well, lack God’s perspective.  The old hymn declares: “But we’ll understand it better by and by.”  We’ll understand it better then, yes, but even in eternity we may never comprehend very many complex mysterious things. Besides, I have found in my life that “the more you know the more you know you don’t know.”  Discovering and exploring one mysterious thing usually reveals the existence of several more mysteries.  And even at that by-and-by time in Glory, quite happily then without our confusing pain, we probably won’t squirm when someone suggests C: “Whatever is happening to me is the most loving thing that could possibly be happening.”

        By the way, lots of people I share this conviction with don’t find this proposal particularly helpful.  Usually not soothing to say the least.  Some even probably think, “That’s easy for you to say, you lucky stiff!”  Sigh!

        ybiC, Dan

        PS – My lovely bride Kolleen and I don’t share this left-brained perspective. In fact, my Sweetie has posted under the forum Basic Teaching and Educational Material the post entitled, “Sovereignty of God Belief.” I have not dug very deeply into that post yet, but intend to cogitate honestly about the points being made there. Cogitating like a good codger should. :yes:

      • #2024
        David W. Roche

          10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.  Isaiah 53:10

          It is strange to our thinking that the Father was pleased that Jesus was put to grief.  However, it was not the suffering itself which pleased Him; rather it was the end result, which was within the will of the Father, than through this suffering the human race was redeemed.  It was a necessary part of the process, and not a goal in itself.

          Likewise, it could be said that God is pleased with our patient endurance of trials.

          We do not fully grasp the fullness of Christ’s atonement for us, although there a number of theological explanations offered.  In a similar sense, we may never completely comprehend the complexities of how God uses our suffering to bring about His perfect will for us.  Since God’s attributes are never in conflict with each other, I must assume that if God is Love, then all He does with my life is rooted in that love.  I also trust that God is fair, and will reward those who have lived with suffering with a more than acceptable recompense in the end.  It is His nature to return more than we expected to those who seek Him and love Him.

        • #2029

          I do believe God is fully able to control every single detail and every single person and yet because of His love, He chose to give people the ability to choose to love Him back or not.  I think, like a parent allowing a growing child to make more and more of their own decisions after teaching how to make wise choices, He restrains Himself from constantly intervening in order for us to learn more and mature in our faith.

          So, He gave us free will…to some extent…the freedom to choose Him or to reject Him…and therefore those who reject Him, He allows Satan to control in all different ways so we are then also affected by their evil actions- but only to the extent that God allows- and He makes us more like Him through it and He is glorified in it.  (“Satan meant it for evil, God means it for good”)

          He always brings good out of everything for us who love Him- Romans 8:28- even when we can’t see the good and may not until we are in Heaven with Him where He rewards us in some way and reveals His work in our lives and those affected by His work in our lives- He will be glorified because of it- which is always good- and we will want Him to be- we will be so happy that He is praised by us & others because we will understand how good and loving He truly is!

          I’m back to my old rambling typing….not sure any of this made sense to anyone else, but it’s stuff I think about too…I do believe that Yahweh is in complete control- including Him allowing Satan to influence man for a time and Him not always stopping us who belong to Him from making decisions based on our own understanding instead of asking, waiting, listening (reading His Word) for His answers and guidance- but even when it’s of our own making, He is able and willing to bring good from that suffering too if we repent of our stupid, prideful ways & trust Him more fully- that is good right there!


        • #2033
          Avatar photoDonna

            An interesting post, MWS ~~  reminds me, how true it is,  that”  God’s ways are higher than ours, His thoughts not ours” .   ~  oh, Praise You LORD GOD for being patient with us, teaching us the value of your wisdom in all You are and do   ~~   How limited mankind is . .  nothing compares to You, Mighty God . .  ~ ~oh Jesus, in the Spirit, thank You for revealing Your will because You choose to . .   you have chosen a family ever Your delight ~~  as promised through trials, and in calm,  You do keep us in the Wing of Your Shielding Protection because of Christ’s gifting and abiding Holy Spirit ~

            ~ oh, to adore You, where You are!~  ~~ soon,  up close at the Heavenly Throne  ~~  truly our assurance by the sheer Glory of our faith is our joy set before us . . given to us IS JESUS we love and worship . .   ~~ We love YOU JESUS ~~

          • #2038

            oh, and then there are “natural” things- disorder- diseases and tornadoes etc. that I’m sure at times are actually God’s judgement or discipline- both done out of His love to turn people to what He knows is best for them- HIM- as in OT times where He’d bring armies against Israel when they were worshiping other gods/demons…(or times of drought, etc.)

            …but I think probably most of disorder in the world is the “natural” result of sin in general- just that fact that Earth is cursed because of our sin nature as human beings since Adam & Eve

            I think most often all of what seems “bad” to us is just the far reaching results of man’s sinfulness in general – not direct correlation, and maybe it’s not really “bad” because it can be the catalyst to draw man away from sin in general and to their loving God – to know and love Him more and more as they experience His peace and strength in their dependency brought on by these types of painful life experiences…

            to me it seems obvious that He did not want mankind to choose sin and it’s results but He wanted to create people who can be like Him and really love- and that requires the ability to choose- He knew that what’s best for us is to learn to accept His love and love Him back- it’d be impossible to appreciate His love- to really know Who He is if we didn’t know what love is, and if we couldn’t choose at all, we wouldn’t know love.

            That being said though, I would lose my mind with fear if I did not believe that God is in control.  The Bible in it’s entirety demonstrates this fact and brings peace of mind to the Believers in Christ Jesus our Lord!  He is the Alpha & Omega and I thank Him for being in control and that i can trust what He says will happen is going to happen in His time and in His way…

            (I’d have to find it again, but I remember reading a verse in Revelation that said a certain angel was waiting at a certain place for an exact specific day when he will do his specific job that he was created/sent to do!  And look at all the prophecies Jesus fulfilled!  God’s will will be done.  He IS in control, and I thank Him for that truth!)

          • #2066
            Avatar photoDonna

              GfG,    oh, isn’t it so, as you say:  ” I would lose my mind with fear if I did not believe that God is in control.”

              Our God is our covering, Jesus reminding us 365 times ‘to fear not’ ~ Our Lord is more than aware of the devil’s schemes to scare God’s children. .   Praise our God for giving us the Comforter abiding in us, greater than the enemy   ~~

            • #2114

                In my life this A +B=C seems to be true. There have been times I thought the sky was falling on my head to later, sometimes years later realize it was for my best. After 14 years of severe pain , which I’m in now I do believe that somehow God is using this for His will. I do not really have a clue now, but I chose to trust and pray His will always in my life no matter what I might be bearing, remembering all things work to the good to those who trust in God.

              • #2124

                  Jesus is the Potter and we are the clay.  He is molding us and then putting the clay pottery piece into the fire to refine us.  The testings/trials we often go through are not pleasant but they are needed to mature us and have our dependency on Him to solve our problems and to meet our  daily needs.  Some trials are small and quick and others seem to be hard and never ending.  Through the good times and bad times I still praise Him because ALL things will work out for good.

                  My life was easy living until May 2010 when both my parents became ill.  My prayer closet was my big bathroom.  As I prayed I would look out that bathroom window.   My view was the backyard river, the woods and the mountains afar off.  The night sky was full of shining stars (no pollution to distract from the view) and then the beautiful moon.  It doesn’t matter if its a full moon, half or sliver … I see rays that come out to form a beautiful cross.  This all began in May 2010 and continues to this day, even though I now live in a condo.  My bedroom has now become my prayer closet.  The days my trials are the hardest, I really need to see His cross.  A few times it was continual overcast skies, so I asked the Lord if He could move the clouds away to see the cross rays and He did.

                  A few months ago my puppy dog accidentally swollowed a 5 inch thin bully stick.  It happened so fast. I placed him on my bed and just turned around to  close the bathroom door and then I looked over at him … the bully stick is missing and I see his head tilted to one side and tears rolling down his eyes.  I quicky put him in my lap, hugging him and looked out the window up at the moon cross rays and I cried out to Jesus to please heal him and to open up his air passage.  15 minutes later … prayers were answered and he got relief and was jumping around again!

                  Jesus loves us all … we can depend on Him for EVERTHING … whatever the  trials we are currently going through (great or small) … cheer up, they will soon be over with!  Our Graduation Day from this life is soon!




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