Jesus is Coming Soon; Most are Not Ready

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    • #11274
      Geri7
      Blocked

      Another good article from Daymond Duck showing the signs of the end times.    I was shocked by point #4  … anybody asking “where’s the beef?”  look no further … Israel has plenty of it grazing on their land!   :whistle:

       

      Jesus is Coming Soon; Most are Not Ready

      By Daymond Duck

      One, God said, “If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people; If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land” (II Chron. 7:13-14).

      Notice the words “no rain,” “locusts” and “pestilence.”

      The drought in Australia has caused the smallest harvest ever recorded there; the locusts are spreading from Africa to the Middle East, India, Pakistan and China; and the Coronavirus pestilence is spreading from China to So. Korea, Japan, Vietnam and Italy (notice no rain, locusts and pestilence).

      God’s solution is humility, prayer, seeking Him and repentance.

      Concerning the Coronavirus, it should not be taken lightly. It is very dangerous (perhaps more dangerous than we know); the suffering and hardship are great. But obey God, look up and be thankful because there have been no deaths in the U.S. at the time of this writing (and 97% or so of the Chinese victims have survived).

      Remember that the Jews that obeyed God by putting the blood of a lamb on the side posts and upper posts at the front door of their houses were protected from the tenth plague, and the 144,000 that will be sealed by God during the Tribulation Period will be protected from the plagues (Gen. 12:7; Rev. 7).

      The gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church.

       

      Two, there will be famine and a global economic collapse after the Rapture (Rev. 6:5-6).

      It has been reported that the locusts in Africa are devouring enough crops to feed 35,000 people a day and the Coronavirus has millions of people shut up in their homes, not working and not able to pay their bills; factories, malls, restaurants and hotels closed; banks closing or being bailed out, etc.

      On Feb. 24, 2020, the Dow Jones Stock Market lost more than 1,000 points.

      God may be showing us what plagues can do, that His Word is true and that the need to accept Jesus is great.

       

      Three, in 2001, Israel decided to build an underground high-speed railroad from the Ben-Gurion International Airport to downtown Jerusalem.

      In 2016, the railroad was almost complete, and Israel decided to extend it to the Temple Mount and to build a railroad station there to accommodate visitors.

      In 2017, Israel decided to name the railroad the King David Railroad because King David made Jerusalem the capital of Israel.

      Israel also decided that the train station near the Temple Mount will be called the Donald J. Trump Station because Pres. Trump recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

      The design work is now complete, and Israel will dig a 1.8-mile long tunnel under downtown Jerusalem (and the old city of Jerusalem) to the Temple Mount. (There is no information on how long this is expected to take.)

       

      Four, according to the Bible, Israel will have silver and gold, cattle and goods in the latter years and latter days (Ezek. 38:8, 12, 16).

      Israeli farmers and ranchers have been raising and selling cattle to the Palestinians. In Sept. 2019, the PA launched a boycott of Israeli beef.

      The boycott has been settled and Israel will sell 120,000 head of cattle to the PA each month (more than 1.4 million head per year).

       

      Five, according to the Bible, Jerusalem will have to be expanded to accommodate all of the Jews at the end of the age (Zech. 2:1-13).

      On Feb. 19, 2020, Prime Min. Netanyahu announced that he has approved permits to build 6,200 housing units in two suburbs of Jerusalem.

       

      Six, some are teaching that we are in the Tribulation Period.

      God may be giving us a glimpse of the Tribulation Period, but we are not in the Tribulation Period.

      The Church is still here, the world government and world religion do not yet exist, the covenant with many does not exist, people are not being forced to take the Mark, etc.

      We are seeing a convergence of the signs, and they are a reminder that we are getting close.

       

      Seven, many readers of Rapture Ready know who Jan Markel, J.D. Farag and Amir Tsarfati are.

      These well-known and highly respected prophecy teachers have been interviewed in a new movie called “Before the Wrath” (before the Tribulation Period).

      It is available on DVD at www.beforethewrath.com.

      Jan reported that she learned from Brent Miller, Jr., the producer of the movie, that a Lifeway Research study found that “98% of the church will not talk about the glorious news that Jesus will return any moment.”

      Think about that: according to the Bible, the Rapture is our blessed hope and 98% of those that call themselves Christians don’t talk about it (Titus 2:13).

      Perhaps that is why it will come upon the world like a snare, and so many Christians think prophecy teachers are fanatics.

      Jesus is coming soon and most are not ready.

      – Fair Use –

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    • #11282
      tenderreed
      Participant

      Indeed not ready, but more importantly not willing to forsake all for Christ’s sake!

      Christ is the first and the last.  He should also be our first love, and if He is our first love we are told that He will be our last love, throughout eternity!

      But fear and unbelief has blinded many within the Church and gripped their hearts with denial!  Many would rather be members of the Holy Ghost bless me club, rather than disciples willing to die to self!

      Chasing after teachers and teachings which offer nothing but promises of health, wealth, prosperity and exercising of “kingdom rights”!!!

      After asking Peter three times of Peter loved the Lord, the injunction was given to Peter that he should “feed” Jesus’s sheep!  Yet many refuse to feed His sheep claiming their not wanting to overwhelm the babes in Christ!

      But when my family sits at the dinner table to eat, every age is present and every age is fed!  The children and babes being made satisfied with their food are content to let the older family members also be filled with the nourishment they need!  Point is everyone gets to eat!

      TR

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    • #11295
      tenderreed
      Participant

      We’ve talked about those that simply don’t see a need for longing after Christ.  We see this on a daily basis within their personal walk with the Lord.  Sadly, even the culmination of a divine romance, new life and glorified living doesn’t seem to garner the appeal one would think!  Not judging, just saying!

      I do know that His love of me is more than could ever be found in my heart towards Him!

      TR

       

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      • #11302
        Geri7
        Blocked

        From the Randy Alcorn youtube I viewed the other day he mentioned people just don’t have any concept of what heaven is going to be like.  Some pastors even said to him they think heaven is going to be one big borefest.  Shocking with that attitude since its coming from “preachers”.  So this is why many “Christians” are not interested in the rapture because they aren’t being taught about heaven in a good light so they want to continue living their life down here thinking its better.  Its very sad and hast to be insulting to the Lord to see his children have that attitude.  We here are trusting it is going to amazing since we are longing to be with Jesus and be reunited with our loved ones and friends who are already up there waiting for us and believe Paul’s testimony with this verse “eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.”

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    • #11309
      tenderreed
      Participant

      Again, pastors of the Church of Christ simply not feeding His sheep!

      TR

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    • #11311
      Tammie
      Participant

      Yet another thing to do is order the movie “Before the wrath” to have on hand as a witness. We pre ordered it and it should arrive this week, so another check for the soon to be trib saints.
      The Lord of the harvest is sending forth laborers into His harvest, the church has failed to raise to the call. The church went to sleep beginning in the 50’s because of the comfort zone. :prayer-hands:

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    • #11317
      Watchman35
      Participant

      If true, blood-bought, born again, Spirit regenerated believers are “not ready”, I don’t see anything in God’s Word that says they will be left behind.  Again, if they are TRUE Christians.  Otherwise, we are talking a partial rapture, and I just don’t see that in the Word.  Probably lost rewards and for sure a lost crown.  Is anyone aware of any scripture that supports a partial rapture (i.e., some TRUE Christians get left behind because they are “not ready”)?

      I agree that even most TRUE Christians seem to be very asleep with regard to the lateness of the hour. The world is completely oblivious to what is about to occur.  Spiritual things are not discerned by the natural man.   Maranatha!!!

       

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    • #11331
      tenderreed
      Participant

      Indeed no partial Raptures for me as well.  Your either a saint or you ain’t!

      Though the Word gives us many promises and assurances it also makes many “if” type statements.  Or statements of a reciprocation.   Again looking towards the parable of the ten virgins.  However interpreted, it is an Heavenly principle defined!

      I have often heard it said that many who will be left behind were simply not saved to begin with.  That said, what gave them reason to think they would also be included?!

      We are told that the Lord has a long arm towards the backslider.  Is this long arm simply a characterization of God’s extended patience and efforts towards an individual.  Does it speak of fellowship or salvation?!  Also we also distuingish a difference between religion and relationship.

      I guess the doctrine of OSAS comes into question at this point.  Are there any exceptions to this doctrine?!  Can someone who has broken fellowship and walked away from God still be saved based on the sinner’s prayer?!  Did not the Father divorce Israel?!

      Interesting discussions to be had here.

      TR

       

       

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    • #11337
      Geri7
      Blocked

      In agreement there is no partial raptures.  The rapture will take all the believers out including the backslidden ones and/or those that aren’t even looking for the rapture to happen.  If you’re saved you’re going up.

      There are many, unfortunately, who have itching ears and listening to false doctrine/teaching … and they only have a head knowledge of who Jesus is.  They never surrendered their life to Jesus.  He is not their personal Savior instead they are trying to be good by including works.  So its a given those are the ones who will get left behind.

       

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    • #11439
      tenderreed
      Participant

      What does being ready constitute?  Certainly for those that neither long for nor look for His appearance will indeed be taken by surprise.  In one sense that’s kinda like asking someone if they are ready for death.

      Sadly, many fear the Rapture rather than accept it for what it is.  It is our blessed hope and has been for saints throughout the ages.  It will be the most glorious event in Christendom since the death and resurrection of Christ.

      It is the fulfillment of the hopes and dreams of man since leaving the Garden!  And knowing all this to be true, why are so many either fearful or ambivalent with regards to the Rapture?!

      But ready or not, here it comes!  The Lord will be done playing hide and seek!  Surely for those who disregard the Rapture there will no doubt be much loss and regret.

      TR

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    • #11440
      Geri7
      Blocked

      Perhaps the wording is “to be alert” or “watchful” for the rapture vs. to be ready since anybody who becomes born again are automatically ready for flying.   And you’re right … there are many believers who don’t want the rapture to happen.  I reckon they will be upset and very disappointed.  I saw one comment on the RITA facebook side yesterday … one guy is extremely dogmatic that he will still be married to his earthly wife.  He claims “no marriage in heaven” only applies to the Levite priests. :wacko:   He is missing the whole concept we are the bride of Christ.  He used the phrase “its not good that man should be alone” well … none of us will be alone in the next life.  We will all be in fellowship – and calling each other brothers and sisters.

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      • #11442
        Leaving Soon
        Participant

        Geri7 I once heard a preacher say that everything good down here like marriage is just a cheap imitation of the real thing up in Heaven. When we get married to Jesus it’s going to be infinitely better than any relationship one could have down here. I can’t wait !

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    • #11463
      tenderreed
      Participant

      Ditto!

      TR

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    • #11471
      tenderreed
      Participant

      I’m reminded of that old joke:  Jesus is coming soon, quick look busy!

      Again, the scriptures upon which the doctrine of OSAS are founded upon will always bear a certain amount of emotional scrutiny.  That said, in the end either we are sealed by God’s Holy Spirit, or not!

      And yet even today, many cannot agree on what specifically that entails.  Certainly not by works, not by personal righteousness, nor by any endeavor of Man!  Many are indeed called but few are chosen.  It’s His criteria that matters.

      We can truly enjoy a personal and intimate relationship with God Almighty our Creator throughout eternity but it bears saying that it must be on His terms!  So then does this yielding and surrender help explain those that are chosen of Him before the foundations were laid?!

      We are told that the Lord looks and judges men from within and outside the sight and reach of men.  Indeed, only the Lord knows who are ready!!!

      TR

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    • #11472
      Geri7
      Blocked

      Its a mystery to me after hearing the Gospel … only seeing a few respond right away while the majority sadly reject Him or keep putting off the decision.  One of my former pastors was Calvinist.  He even wrote a book and handed it out to every family in the church at Christmas time.  It’s an interesting book (I still have it) and he uses A LOT of Scripture to get his point across.  Lots of select, chosen, elected verses and old hymns of the faith included in with his writings.  Even though I believe the invitation is for everyone (whosoever will) I do believe that the Lord still chooses people to salvation.  I was just thinking of my unsaved childhood neighbor today … wondering if she ever got saved. We were very close but after I got saved I tried to share the Good News with her but she never made any decision and we eventually drew apart afterwards.  Same thing happened with her parents towards my parents.  Before her mom was always asking for recipes or clothes patterns because she liked everything my mom made. My dad bought property in the Poconos, PA to have a vacation home built and her dad did the same thing and even wanted the same house blueprints.  They copied everything we did except when it came time for salvation.  I always wondered the “why” they refused the free gift of eternal life?  I used to listen to Chuck Smith from Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa, CA on the radio.  He was a BIG Calvinist.  I recall him saying “God does the choosing … just like we choose who we want to marry down here … He does the same in heaven … and I think that is fair because he chose me.  Then I heard the whole congregation laughing”.   People who are against the Calvinist view will argue and say “well then that means we can sit back and not witness since God does the choosing and those people are going to be automatically saved.”  No, we still witness and share our faith because we don’t know who it is that will be getting saved.  If a person flat out rejects the Good News then chances are they weren’t chosen.  To me the mystery is … there are some people who can reject and put off the decision for years and keep hearing the invitation call and then finally they do so.  Then there are others who only get 1 or 2 chances.  I’ve read a few death bed testimonies of the lost and when a saved person was urging them to call on Jesus they claimed they can’t, its too late, they recall telling the Holy Spirit not now, or go away, or they simply ignored Him.  I wonder if our prayers for the lost is what’s keeps the Holy Spirit on our unsaved loved ones?  This is why I will pray that the Holy Spirit never leaves that lost individual so they still have a chance to make that decision before they take their last breath.  Any thoughts on this?

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    • #11473
      tenderreed
      Participant

      Indeed deathbed confessions are valid theologically.  Once again only the Lord can look into someone’s heart and discern motive.  But to truly acknowledge and understand what Christ has done IMHO and appreciate His gift of salvation one would also have to experience heartfelt gratitude, as opposed to a fear based decision!

      Again, one does not accept Christ to just simply avoid Hell, but rather to enjoy His presence for an eternity!  But that’s for the Lord to discern, not me!

      TR

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    • #11474
      Arthur
      Participant

      After extensive study, I am a zero point Calvinist.

      I don’t want to offend anyone on here but I cannot accept the calvinist  theology. Please no one take my bluntness the wrong way.

      A good book to read on the subject is called Chosen but Free by Norman Geisler. That helped reconciled everything for me. That and a lot of prayer and reading the Bible.

      Let’s keep praying for the lost and sharing our faith and God will take care of the details. :good:

       

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      • #11485
        Geri7
        Blocked

        No worries, we can agree to disagree and wait and see on the eternal side to understand it all. :yes:   All I know is there are far too many Bible verses about being “elected” “chosen” “foreordained” “appointed” … including “my sheep” to ignore.

        God chose the Jews to be His chosen people
        Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated – Romans 9:13

        Jesus chose His disciples
        “Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them – Matt 28:16

        The early church

        Acts 13:48 “And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed”

        John 10:29
        My Father, who hath given them to me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

        II Thess 2:13 “God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth”

        The Trinity is seen at work in this verse … (God the Father) chooses to salvation thru the sanctification of the (Holy Spirit) that does the drawing part … to the belief of the Truth (Jesus).  He is the way the Truth and the Life nobody comes to the Father but through Him.

        ————

        Chosen by the Father
        Purchased by the Son
        Born of the Spirit
        I’m His very own

        – quote from Dr. David Nettleton

        ————-

        According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:  having predestination us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will – Ephesians 1:4-5

        And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.  For whom he did foreknowledge, he also did predestination to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.  Moreover whom he did predestination, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.  – Romans 8:28-30

        For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called; but God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to naught things which are: that no flesh should glory in his presence. – I Corinthians 1:26-29

        Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; – Col 3:12

        Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God – I Thess 1:4

        Who hath saved us, and called us  with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began – II Timothy 1:9

        For the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory – II Timothy 2:10

        According to the faith of God’s elect – Titus 1:1   In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began – Titus 1:2

        Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ – I Peter 1:2

        The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you …  – I Peter 5:13

        ————
        Romans 9 through 11 shows the election of the nation Israel and the sovereignty of God in His dealings with Israel, we learn of God’s nature, God’s ways and God’s choice.

        That the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that called – Romans 9:11

        For he smith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.  So then It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. – Romans 9:15,16

        Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and who me He will He hardeneth – Romans 9:18

        What if God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:  And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory.  Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles – Romans 9:22-24.

        ————-
        In the tribulation … we see God seals His chosen/His elect

        And I heard the number of them which were sealed; and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.  Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand …. – Rev 7:4,5

        “For the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

        “Then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost parts of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven”

        “Shall not God avenge his own elect, who cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?”

        ———————————————
        Here are some old hymns to ponder  …

        The Church is One Foundation
        By Samuel J. Stone

        Elect from ev’ry nation,
        Yet one o’er all the earth,
        Her charter of salvation,
        One Lord, one faith, one birth;
        One holy name she blesses,
        Partakes one holy food,
        And to one hope she presses,
        With ev’ry grace endured

        The divine side and human side is expressed in many great hymns

        I sought the Lord, and afterward I knew
        He moved my soul to seek Him, seeking me;
        It was not that I found, O Savior true;
        No, I was found of Thee.

        Thous didn’t reach forth Thy hand and mine enfold;
        I walked and sank not on the storm-vexed sea;
        ‘Twas not so much that I on Thee took hold,
        As Thou, dear Lord, on me.

        I find, I walk, I love; but O the whole
        Of love is but my answer, Lord, to Thee!
        For Thou wert long beforehand with my soul;
        Always Thou lovedst me.

        ———-
        One old hymn writer confessed his own depravity:

        ‘Tis not that I did choose Thee,
        For Lord, that could not be,
        This heart would still refuse Thee,
        Hadn’t thou not chosen me.

        ———-

        “Come, Thou Fount” by Robert Robinson

        Jesus sought me when a stranger
        Wand’ring from the fold of God;
        He to rescue me from danger
        Interposed His precious blood.

        ————-

        It is great to sing, “I believe” but let’s not omit the grace of God

        O the love that sought me!
        O the blood that brought me!
        O the grace that brought me to the fold,
        Wondrous grace that brought me to the fold!

        By W. Spencer Walton

        —————
        Faith admits a mystery. Humility sees God making a choice, imparting faith, moving by His Spirit convincing men of sin, creating faith in Him.

        I know not why God’s wondrous grace
        To me He hath made known,
        Nor why, unworthy, Christ in love
        Redeemed me for His own.

        I know not how this saving faith
        To me He did impart
        Nor how believing in His Word
        Wrought peace within my heart.

        I know not how the Spirit moves,
        Convincing men of sin,
        Revealing Jesus thru the Word,
        Creating faith in Him.

        – Daniel W. Whittle

        —————-
        John Newton knew the grace of God that rescued him from debauchery.  He wrote words that will never be forgotten.

        T’was grace that taught my heart to fear,
        And grace my fears relieved;
        How precious did that grace appear
        The hour I first believed

        ——————
        Charles Haddon Spurgeon quoted the sovereign grace of God

        “… some indeed can not sing of election: the Lord open their mouths a little wider!  Some there are that are afraid of the very term; but we only despise men who are afraid of what they believe, afraid of what God has taught them in his Bible.  No, its our darker hours it is our joy to sing:

        “Sons we are through God’s election,
        Who is Jesus Christ believe;
        By eternal destination,
        Sovereign grace we now receive.
        Lord, thy favor,
        Shall both grace and glory give.“

         

        – Fair Use-

         

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    • #11487
      Arthur
      Participant

      Thank you for your gracious reply.  :)
      I will answer this more thoroughly at a later time as I am going to a Chosen People Ministries Conference today.  (God has a sense of humour.  Lol.)

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      • #11489
        Geri7
        Blocked

        :mdrmdr:   That is funny!  What a coincidence. B-)   Have a fun time!

        Personally, I still don’t understand the whole process … all I know is He is the one who does the drawing and the saving.  We are told to be obedient in the “go tell” part and prayer … and we leave the rest up to the Lord. :whistle:

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    • #11577
      Arthur
      Participant

      Alright, I have some time now. It is difficult to post on my cell phone but my tablet works fine.

      I think any sensible person would reject limited atonement as it is thoroughly unbiblical.

      ” But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God SHOULD TASTE DEATH FOR EVERY MAN.” (Hebrews 2:9).

      “For there in one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the Man CHRIST JESUS, Who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time.”(1Timothy 2:5-6).

      “And He is the propitiation for OUR SINS: and not for ours only, BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. ” (1 John 2:2)

      Now, some might say, “I am a 4 point Calvinist and not a 5 point Calvinist. I reject Limited Atonement.” However, it is a package deal. If Limited Atonement is rejected then the whole TULIP falls apart. Therefore, one is either a 5 point Calvinist or a zero point Calvinist.

      The P in the Tulip is Perseverance of the Saints. This is a thoroughly unbiblical notion that is essentially a backdoor works based salvation. This is not surprising as Calvin was a Roman Catholic and his hero was Augustine who was the father of Roman Catholicism.

      Preservation of the Saints is a biblical but perseverance is not.

      This article deals explains it well:

      The False Teaching of “Perseverance of the Saints”

      I pray that anyone thanks considering Calvinism would pray to God for wisdom about it. God will expose it for what it is. A false works based salvation cult that enslaves people. I have personally seen it ruin the lives of  two of my dear friends. :(

       

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    • #11581
      Geri7
      Blocked

      Yikes!  I know nothing about that TULIP stuff .. my church never taught any of that. Salvation is only by faith alone in the finished work of Jesus, no works whatsoever and the Gospel is for whosoever.   But God,  still chooses, elects, selects, etc.  Perhaps this will explain things further …

       

      God makes sovereign choices.
      God has spotless character.
      God has sincere concerns.

       

      Predestined To Hell? Absolutely Not!
      By  Dr. Adrian Rogers:

      May I say this, friend: Ours is the greatest mission on earth: the salvation of lost souls. Our message is the greatest message: the glorious Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Our Master is the greatest Master, Jesus Christ Himself. One of the early leaders of this mission was a Jew named Paul, author of the book of Romans.

      Turn to Romans 9:1-2. What you have here is the heartbeat of a soul winner. Fill in some key words:

      1-2 “I say the truth in Christ, I ______ not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great _________________ and ________________ ___________ in my heart.”

      1. In Paul’s sincere concern for souls, who does he call upon as a witness?

      2. In Paul’s sacrificial concern for souls, what does he assert?

      3 For I could wish that myself were ________________ _______ Christ, for [the sake of] my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh.

      Already, from these passages alone, we’re getting a sense of what God’s desire is and how the concept of predestination influences the issue of salvation.

      If I understand plain English, Paul was so full of Jesus he said, “I would be willing to die and go to Hell if my Jewish brothers and sisters could get saved. I’d be willing to take their Hell if they could take my Heaven.” I’m not sure I could say that. That’s sacrifice. That’s exactly what Jesus did on the cross. He had a sacrificial concern for souls.

      But notice, as we tighten the focus, when Paul addresses this message to the Jews, he has a message to the church of God, because in this we learn something of the character and nature of God. And this will lead us to the truth about whether or not a person is predestined, from the beginning, for either Heaven or Hell.

      All true theology has to know the nature of God. If you do not know the true nature of God—if you do not know His character and His attributes—your theology will be skewed. You cannot interpret or understand Scripture correctly if you do not know the character of the One who wrote it.

      As we look into the question asked by the title of our study, we’re going to learn things about God’s character and attributes through Scripture which will help our theology come into focus.

      God makes sovereign choices.

      3. Continuing in Romans 9—

      3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh; 4 who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 whose are the Fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever.

      Paul is simply saying the Jews are the chosen people, a special people, blessed and chosen by God for a purpose.

      Look at the 3 words in bold in this passage.

      Adoption—you cannot adopt yourself.
      Covenants—you do not make a covenant by yourself (a covenant is an agreement between two parties)
      Giving of the law—you do not give yourself the law.
      All these were initiated by God and required His proactive movement toward a specific people. According to the passage, who chose the Jews?

      4. 5 and of whom as concerning the flesh, Christ came…

      For what purpose were the Jews set apart by God from other peoples/nations?

      5. Not all the children of Abraham were chosen.

      6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

      7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In _________ shall thy seed be called.

      Abraham had both Ishmael and Isaac. God sovereignly chose only one. Paul narrows down the sovereign choice of God even further:

      10-13 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but Him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, ‘The elder shall serve the younger.’ 13 As it is written, ‘Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.’”

      Let’s pause, because some people are going to be unsettled by verse 13.

      When the text says that “Before these children were born, having done neither good nor evil,” God chose one of them over the other, someone will ask, “Now, wait a minute. You’re telling me, before they were born, God said of these children, ‘I love this one, and I hate that one?’ God chose one to go to Heaven and one to go to Hell?”

      No, that isn’t what it says. Speaking of Jacob and Esau, God is not talking about one boy or another boy. God is talking about two whole nations. What’s being described here is national, not personal.

      6. Turn to Genesis 25:23.

      “And the Lord said unto her [Rebecca], ‘Two _____________ are in thy womb, and two _____________ ____ ____________ shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the _________ shall serve the _____________.’”

      That is, Esau’s descendants will be one nation that will serve Jacob’s descendants, another nation (the twelve tribes of Israel). It doesn’t say anything about saved or lost; it is service, not salvation. He’s not talking about two little babies. It’s not personal, but national. It’s not about salvation, but service.

      7. But what about where it says in verse 13, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I
      hated”?

      A CLOSER LOOK AT “ESAU I HAVE HATED” A better rendering in today’s language is “I have preferred one, not that I abhor the other,” or “I chose Jacob instead of Esau.” This is completely different from the idea that God arbitrarily hated Esau.

      In Luke 14:26, Jesus is talking about being His disciple:
      “If any man come to Me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.”

      Is Jesus saying we must despise our fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, our little children in order to be His disciples? ______
      As the word is used here, it simply means preference. God had a sovereign preference for this man Jacob, and He did not have a preference for Esau. It doesn’t mean “Esau, I created you to go to Hell. I hate you.”
      The Message captures the meaning of this passage very well:

      10-13 To Rebecca, also, a promise was made that took priority over genetics. When she became pregnant by our one-of-a-kind ancestor, Isaac, and her babies were still innocent in the womb—incapable of good or bad—she received a special assurance from God. What God did in this case made it perfectly plain that His purpose is not a hit-or-miss thing dependent on what we do or don’t do, but a sure thing determined by His decision, flowing steadily from His initiative. God told Rebecca, “The firstborn of your twins will take second place.” Later that was turned into a stark epigram: “I loved Jacob; I hated Esau.”

      To recap:
      God’s choice of Jacob over Esau…
      was national, not personal.
      dealt with service, not salvation.
      dealt with preference, not contempt.

      If you don’t understand that, you’re going to get confused.

      8. To help us at this point, turn to Romans 5:8. Four chapters earlier in this letter, Paul has already established this fact about God:

      a. “But God commendeth His ________ ____________ ____, in that while we were ____ sinners, Christ died for us.”

      b. What state were we in when Christ died for us?

      c. Were we making efforts to clean up our act and be more presentable when Jesus went to the Cross for us?

      d. Had we done anything to cause God to say, “I think I’ll redeem that one”?

      9. Turn to 1 John 4:7-8. Repeatedly in the Bible, God reveals one of His primary attributes. You find it here.

      Beloved, let us ______ one another, for ______ is of ______, and everyone who loveth is _______ of God and _______________ God. He who __________ _____, knoweth not God, for God is _________.

      Thus far we have seen:

      God loves lost sinners, which is what we all are before we come to Christ.

      Don’t get the idea that Esau—or anyone—is predestined for Hell.
      God chooses individuals.

      He has preferences for nations, having to do with their realm of service for Him, but it is national, not personal. It is service, not salvation. It is preference, not contempt.

      10. Continuing in Romans, we will take verses 14 through 24 bit by bit.

      14 What shall we say then? Is there __________________ with God? God forbid. 15 For He saith to Moses, ‘I will ______ ________ on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.’ 16 So then it is _____ of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of_____ does that show mercy.

      God pardons according to His sovereign will. Does that mean God says, “I’m not going to give mercy if you ask for mercy”? No, not at all. God is simply saying, “If you’re saved, you’re going to be saved by grace. It’s not because you will for me to be merciful to you. It’s because I will it.”

      God’s mercy is not rooted in man’s merit, but is found in God, because God is merciful.

      11. Truth about God’s mercy
      a. Turn to Titus 3:5

      “It is not by ________ of righteousness that we have done, but according to His __________ He saved us.”

      b. Psalm 32:10

      “Many sorrows shall be to the wicked, but to him that ____________ the Lord, mercy shall ______________ him about.”

      What does the Bible tell us here about God’s mercy?

      c. On the other hand, in balance with that, see Proverbs 28:13

      “He that ________________ his sins shall not prosper: but whoso _________________ and forsaketh them shall have mercy.”

      What would cause God to withhold His mercy?

      If you want mercy, you can have it. You say, “Well, no… it’s only according to God, who wills, to show mercy.” That’s right! And God wills to show you mercy. God is merciful.

      Pardon is according to God’s sovereign will. God has decided He will show us mercy when we don’t deserve it. It isn’t rooted in our merit, but in His mercy.

      12. Now in chapter 9, we come to Pharaoh, the wicked king of Egypt. Paul refers to what happened to Pharaoh as an example of what can happen to a person who spurns God’s mercy and goes his own way.

      17 For the Scriptures saith unto Pharaoh, ‘Even for this same purpose have __ _______ ___________ _______ _____, that I might show My power in thee, that My name might be declared throughout all the earth.’ 18 Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He _________________.

      People have raced their theological motors on this, fretting, “God made Pharaoh, but only raised him up just so He could knock him down. God created him so He could send him to Hell.”

      No, that’s not what this says at all. When the Bible says “God raised up Pharaoh,” that doesn’t mean that God grew him from a child. The language means God raised him up to the very highest throne, giving him place, power and prestige so that God will be glorified by His judgment on this man.

      13. Turn to Exodus 9:16. God is speaking directly to Pharaoh:
      “And in very deed and for this cause have I __________ ______ ____, for to show in thee My ___________; that My name may be ____________ throughout all the _________.”

      14. It sounds like God forced Pharaoh to rebel. Is that the case?

      Exodus 8:15 “But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, ___ _______________ his heart, and hearkened not unto them”
      Exodus 8:32 “And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go”
      Who is making the choices here?

      A CLOSER LOOK AT PHARAOH’S HARDENED HEART Eighteen times in this passage in Exodus we find, “And Pharaoh hardened his heart,” or “Pharaoh’s heart was hardened.” Nine of those times, Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Pharaoh first hardened his own heart before God hardened his heart.

      God did not override Pharaoh’s will.
      What happened was this: God did not harden his heart when he was young and tender, when he was a child. God witnessed to him. God warned him. God sent a messenger to him. God sent the plagues, but Pharaoh himself hardened his own heart. Pharaoh was already lost. God didn’t make him lost. Pharaoh was vile, wicked, cruel. He was a despot. He had murdered thousands of people. He had a heart set against God. God’s judgments upon Pharaoh only crystallized Pharaoh in his sin.

      God did not create Pharaoh and say, “I have chosen you, to send you to Hell.” No. God said, “I’m going to make an example out of you. I am going to show My power in you. You hardened your own heart. Now, as a reciprocal action, I’m going to send plagues that will even further harden your heart, and I’m going to use you as an example of My punishment.”
      God’s love will be magnified in Heaven, and God’s justice is going to be manifest in Hell. God uses situations like this to bring glory to Himself. God said, “I raised you up, that I might show My power in you.” The only reason God hardened Pharaoh’s heart is that Pharaoh had already hardened his own heart.

      15. What about your heart? You can make the same choice Pharaoh did. You can harden your heart. The Bible warns against being hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

      Turn to Hebrews 3:15.

      “Today, if you will hear His voice, _________ not ______ ________.”

      If you harden your heart against God, you will, like Pharaoh, crystallize in your sin and God’s judgment upon you will harden your heart even more.

      Eventually, God destroyed Pharaoh because even with the patience (longsuffering) of God and the warnings He sent, Pharaoh would not accept those warnings. Thus he was made an example of God’s wrath.

      God has every right to punish sin because He will give us mercy if we want mercy. But the sobering thought is: if we harden our hearts, God will harden our hearts further. He will say, “All right then, since you insist upon it, not My will, but yours be done.”

      16. Continuing in Romans 9, many people have difficulty with verse 19.

      19 Wilt thou say then unto me, ‘Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath ____________ His ______?

      Is it true that, “If God is sovereign, we’re just victims. There’s nothing we can do about it”? Is that the case? Keep reading…

      20 But nay, O man, _____ _____ ______ that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say unto Him that formed it, ‘______ hast Thou made me thus?’

      It doesn’t say “the thing created,” but “the thing formed.” Here God is shaping, and some will not take the shaping. Some people will not like God’s choices in any realm. And the Jews might say, “What right does God have to break His promises to us? We’re the chosen nation.” In verse 20, Paul’s “Who are you that replies to God?” is his own version of, “Your arms are too short to box with God.”

      God is sovereign. He does as He pleases. He answers to no one. Respect this: God is God!

      A CLOSER LOOK AT FAIRNESS, JUSTICE, AND MERCY

      God is not fair; He is just. If you believe God has to be fair, then you will believe He owes you something. You’ll be upset if you don’t get what you want, or if someone gets it before you do. God doesn’t owe us anything but judgment. When you realize God is just, then His mercy toward you is going to mean something to you.

      God is saying, “Listen, I am free to pardon, and I am free to punish. I am God, and I will pardon whom I will pardon. And I will punish whom I will punish.” Does that mean that God does that arbitrarily? No. God does as He pleases, but He always pleases to do right. There is no unrighteousness with God.

      17. Continuing,

      21 Hath not the ____________ ___________ over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
      22 What if God, willing to show His wrath, and to make His power known, _____________ with much ________________ (patience) the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction;

      What is he saying? The Amplified Bible clarifies it:

      22 What if God, although fully intending to show the awfulness of His wrath and to make known His power and authority, has tolerated with much patience the vessels (objects) of His anger which are ripe for destruction?

      God, who is longsuffering, is forming, working, forming, but these vessels of wrath are not yielding to the hands of the Potter.

      A CLOSER LOOK AT A SCARY TERM: “FITTED FOR DESTRUCTION”

      About “vessels of wrath fitted for destruction,” W. E. Vine says in his Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: “[Paul’s use of] the middle voice indicates that the vessels of wrath fitted themselves for destruction. It is not the Potter who fits them for destruction. They fitted themselves for destruction. The Potter was longsuffering. He did not create them; He formed them. But they were fitted; that is, they made themselves fit for destruction.”

      But it doesn’t have to end there for any of us. All this is going somewhere so that it can bring about the best possible result.

      23 and that He might make known__________ the ________ of His _________ on the vessels of _________, which He hath afore ________________ unto _________, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

      18. What he is saying is—

      23 He waited with patience so that He could make known His rich glory to the people who receive His mercy. He has prepared these people to have His glory, 24 and we are those people whom God called. He called us not from the Jews only but also from those who are not Jews. (NCV)

      Look at what this means:

      God waited with patience so He could make known His rich glory to all of us,
      We receive His mercy
      He has prepared us to have His glory
      We are the people God has called.
      How does it make you feel to know that you are in this group, and that anyone who asks for this same mercy can receive it? What are your thoughts?

      Predestined for Hell?

      Some people have the idea that God says, “I’m going to make two vessels. One I’m going to send to Heaven; the other, I’m sending to Hell. People are just weak, helpless, insensible clay, and I’m the Potter. So I’ll just take a lump of clay…. I’ll make this one for Heaven; I’ll make this one for Hell. Nothing you can do about it.”

      Is that the kind of God displayed in the Bible or in the book of Romans? Listen carefully to understand what the apostle Paul is saying here. God did not ordain some for Hell. What potter would ever make a vessel just so he could destroy it? Can you imagine a potter in his shop making a bunch of vessels, setting them on a shelf, then making other vessels, setting them on a shelf, then taking a stick and just breaking one group to pieces? He set out to do that? Of course not. God did not ordain some people to Hell. No. The reason some vessels were destroyed is they did not realize the purpose of the Potter.

      God has spotless character.

      The Bible tells us over and over again in a multitude of verses (we’re going to look at 4 of them), God is holy; thus He cannot sin. He cannot do wrong.

      People say, “God can do anything He wants, so that means He is free to sin. There is nothing God can’t do, so God can sin anytime He wants to.” That blanket statement is not correct. No, there are some things God cannot do, and sin is one of them.

      Why? Because to sin would be to deny His own character. He cannot deny Himself nor act in a way that is a violation of His character. In the choices God makes, He cannot and will not choose to do wrong.

      19. See these 4 passages; two are close together in the book of Psalms:

      a. In Genesis 18:25, Abraham asks a rhetorical question:
      “Shall not the Judge of all the earth do __________?”

      b. Psalm 67:4
      O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for Thou shalt judge the people ___________________, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.

      c. Psalm 96:13
      Before the Lord: for He cometh, for He cometh to judge the earth: He shall judge the world with ________________, and the people with His __________.

      d. Revelation 19:2
      For ________ and ________________ are His judgments:

       

      We could go on all day with Scripture confirming that God judges from righteousness, not from pique, a bad mood, or a temper tantrum.

      20. Turn to Romans 11:33. This is one of the key passages in our study of predestination as it pertains to salvation.

      Two chapters beyond where we are right now, Paul has come to this statement about our sovereign, spotless God. This verse is profound, almost poetic in its content and beauty:

      O the ________ of the ___________ both of the ___________ and _________________ of God! How __________________ are His judgments, and His _______ ________ finding out!

      God is holy, righteous and just in all His ways—and His ways are “past finding out.”

      God does not create people in order to damn them! God does not create people in order to destroy them! God is a God of love.

      21. If you still think God wants some to go to Hell, turn to 1 Timothy 2:3-4.

      3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 Who will have _______ men to be saved and to come unto the __________________ of the ________.

      God has steadfast concern.

      22. What is God all about? Look again at verse 23:

      “23And that He might _____ _______ the riches of His _________ on the vessels of mercy [the people who are saved] “which He hath afore prepared unto glory.”

      What are we being prepared for? _____________________________________
      What, specifically, does this mean? The working out of Romans 8:28, which Paul has just said in the previous chapter. Turn back one chapter to this verse.

      28 And we know that all things ______ ___________ for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.

      All things are working together for good to make us like the Lord Jesus, “24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only.”

      He’s saying to the Jews, “Look, you’ve not cornered the market on this thing.” Then Paul quotes Hosea in a prophetic passage,

      I will call them My people, which were not My people (we Gentiles); and her beloved, which was not beloved. (Hosea 1:10)

      God is saying, “I’m going to take a bunch of folks that are not part of the covenant promises of Israel, and I’m going to include them in.”

      26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, “Ye are not My people,” there shall they be called the _____________ of the ______ ______.

      He’s talking about us, folks. What He’s saying is, “My purpose and plan is to take both Jews and Gentiles and make them children of God.” This is God’s steadfast concern and purpose. The highest privilege on earth is to be a son, a daughter of God.

      23. In closing, and to answer with Scripture our question: “Are some people predestined to go to Hell?” I’m going to show you that God wants all people saved; that God didn’t create anybody to go to Hell.

      Turn to John 3:16. You’ve known this one since you were a child.
      “For God so loved the elect….” Something wrong there, isn’t it?

      “For God so loved ____ _________, that He gave His only begotten Son,

      that if a certain number would believe on Him.” No….

      “That _______________ _believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that ____ ________ through Him might be saved.”

      Isaiah 53: 6
      “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on Him [Jesus], “the iniquity of ___ ___.”

      Jesus died for ___ ____.

      Romans 8:32
      “He that spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for ___ _____ how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?”

      1Timothy 2:4
      Who will have _____ men to be saved.”

      1 John 4:14
      “And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of ___ ________.

      1 John 2:1-2
      “My little children, these things write I unto you, that you sin not. And if _____ (which ones? ____) man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He is the propitiation (satisfaction) for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins ___ ____ ________ _________.”

      Some people say Jesus didn’t die for everybody. He did! He did!

      That’s the reason I’m glad I’m a Gospel preacher. That’s the reason I can say to anybody, any place, anywhere: “If you want mercy, you can have mercy. If you want salvation, you can have salvation. If you want to be saved, I’m telling you, on the authority of the Word of God, you can be saved.”

      24. God closes the entire Bible with that blessed book, the book of Revelation, and in the last chapter, God says:

      17“And the Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come. And let him that heareth say, ‘Come.’ And let him that is athirst come. And_______________ _____, let him take of the water of life _________.’”

      – Fair Use –

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    • #11589
      tenderreed
      Participant

      Well put together.  Indeed, what I and many have been saying all along.  It’s not about religion, but relationship.  For in a relationship you learn the other’s heart.  Knowing then God’s heart we can rightly divide His words of life.

      You surrender to another’s heart.  You are committed to please another’s heart.  Sounds  matrimonial to me!   So too, we surrender to God’s heart and will acknowledging His authority, leadership and sovereignty!

      For if we pray always, and are led by His Spirit we shall never loose our way.  For He is our Teacher/Rabbi, He is our Shepherd, He is our example!  He is our source!  When we make His heart ours, our hearts are established in His!

      TR

       

       

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    • #11591
      Tammie
      Participant

      Well said TR and very concise :good:

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    • #11628
      Arthur
      Participant

      Geri, I am glad you have never heard of the Calvinist TULIP. That means you are not a Calvinist. I hope I have not come across as being accusatory. :)

      Calvinists are very adept at redefining biblical terms to promote their unbiblical philosophy. One such term is sovereignty.

      Here is a good article on the subject and a snippet from it:

      One very popular denominational preacher and writer, John Piper, is famous for saying that “all things” – even down to the subatomic level – “are ordained, guided, and governed” by God.1 The idea that God determines everything can be traced back to Augustine of Hippo in the 5th century and is particularly popular among a branch of Protestantism known as Reformed theology.

      Reformed theology, more commonly known as Calvinism2 (we will use these words interchangeably), is a religious philosophy that follows the teachings of John Calvin and other Protestant theologians from the Reformation era. It is should be noted that Reformed theology, or Calvinism, is experiencing a resurgence in America today. So popular is Reformed theology that any Christian who reads relatively conservative denominational literature is well acquainted famous Calvinistic authors. Understandably, younger preachers thirsty for truth tend to be particularly fond of their writings because of their often passionate, yet conservative, approach to many Biblical issues. (And as a result, their Calvinistic influences sometimes unknowingly creep into the young preacher’s respective pulpit.)

      The reason it is important to examine Calvinism as it relates to this study is because Reformed theology has traditionally emphasized God’s sovereignty and predestination over everything else. In fact, the idea of the sovereignty of God is the basis of Calvinism itself. Reformed theologians take great pride in the lofty ways in which they talk about God. Ben Warburton writes, “The one rock upon which Calvinism builds is that of the absolute and unlimited sovereignty of the eternal and self-existent Jehovah.”[3]

      But herein lies the problem: The sovereign God of the Bible and the sovereign God of Calvinism are two very different Gods. Calvinists have redefined the meaning of the word sovereignty. To the Bible-believing Christian, sovereignty simply means God’s ability and right to rule the world (chapter 5 of You Are A Theologian: Thinking Right About God). However, to the devoted Calvinist, sovereignty means “divine determinism.” Divine determinism is the belief that God determines, causes, and orchestrates everything in history according to His preconceived plan, including sin and evil.

      https://plainsimplefaith.com/calvinism/

       

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      • #11640
        Geri7
        Blocked

        Arthur, no worries you did not offend me at all. :rose:

        I’m out of the loop with this “reformed” stuff and I’m not familiar with John Piper either.  The first time I heard his name mentioned was last year on this forum board.  LOL.  Thank you for sharing what they believe.  So is it a given that “Christ Reform Churches” are all part of this TULIP stuff?  Do they also believe in post-trib views vs. pre- trib?  I have a brother in California and he attends a few different churches each week.  I know he is saved as well as his family but his wife and children wanted to attend a Presbyterian church since it had a good youth group and was lively.  She home schooled her kids and they wanted to fellowship with other Christians that had very active programs.  2 of his daughters went to Biola University.  Is that considered a sound Christian college?  One of them recently married a preacher’s son who pastors a “Christ Reform Church” in Anaheim. :wacko:    I couldn’t figure out what that church stood for because I didn’t know what “reformed” meant and tried to get the info out of my older brother.  He wouldn’t tell me because we are still in an argument about pre-trib vs. post-trib.   He used to be pre-trib but the California churches changed his view. :negative:  All his family on the East Coast are telling him he is wrong with the post-trib talk.  Thank God that isn’t a salvation issue.

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        • #11655
          Arthur
          Participant

          Thank you Geri for your graciousness.  Most Cavinists/Reformed are amillenial.

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    • #11629
      Arthur
      Participant

      BTW, thank you for the article from Adrian Rodgers. Love that man. I listen to him on Christian radio when I can. :)

      Anyway, I hope I haven’t forced the thread off topic.

      God is good and He is coming soon. :)

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    • #11650
      David W. Roche
      Moderator

      [quote]Divine determinism is the belief that God determines, causes, and orchestrates everything in history according to His preconceived plan, including sin and evil.[/quote]

      It can lead to some interesting philosophical questions, but ultimately they are beyond our grasp.  Of course, I believe God’s sovereignty is absolute; I also believe He has carved out an area in that sovereignty to allow for our free will.  Otherwise, there would be no real choice and no real love.

      We tend to see our existence as inevitable, since we are here.  And yet, our conception was dependent upon factors which seemingly could have gone quite differently.  If our parents had made other choices, some apparently small and insignificant, would we have been born?  And if those choices have an effect upon our being in the world, at which point do we say this was predetermined and something else was not?  I really have no way of answering in any meaningful way.

      I cannot accept determinism, as it would mean God judges people for things they had no control over.  If their rejection of Him is not genuine, then neither would our love for Him be real.  It would all be a puppet show.  Nevertheless, there are some things God has assured us will take place and they are set in stone for the future.

      I believe the coming of Christ is definitely one of those events and not subject to alteration by any creature’s choices.  From a human perspective, it may seem as if God has delayed things, but the moment has been set from eternity and will take place exactly as scheduled.

       

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    • #11656
      Arthur
      Participant

      Thank you,  David.  You have explained it well. :)

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    • #11737
      tenderreed
      Participant

      Again, there is no partial Rapture in the truest sense.  But a delayed gratification of sorts!

      But for those who have heard and weren’t serious about their relationship, their conviction during the Tribulation should be enough to truly bring them into a saving knowledge of Christ!

      Then making themselves ready to be received into Heaven!

      TR

       

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    • #11809
      Tammie
      Participant

      David, God determined to love me John 3:16, and His mercy is beyond my understanding — just my two cents :good: :yahoo: :prayer-hands:

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    • #11911
      tenderreed
      Participant

      Betcha I could easily add a dollar to your two cents, and still be in agreement Tammie! Tee, hee, hee.

      TR

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    • #11912
      Tammie
      Participant

      TR – back at ya brother! Feeling the love of God and His peace! The King is coming! Seems almost very surreal doesn’t it? :yahoo: :prayer-hands:

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    • #11931
      tenderreed
      Participant

      Surreal just doesn’t seem to be enough to describe it.  My heart is full, my breath is halting, my mind is in collapse, my tears are unstoppable!

      TR

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      • #11933
        Geri7
        Blocked

        Ooh ooh and

        Just kidding … I’m truly all paid up and ready to go! B-)

         

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