Stupid is as stupid does…

A Pretribulation Bible Study Group Forums Main Forum Stupid is as stupid does…

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    • #4474
      tenderreed
      Participant

      Even though the Lord has angels constantly recording the thoughts, words and deeds of all men, and will stand completely vindicated against any charge of being unfair.

      I could almost imagine hearing God saying, stupid is as stupid does in the Judgment. :good:

      And if He doesn’t, I would be glad to speak that for Him!  Then I could imagine every saint in Heaven nodding their approval! :-)

      Or maybe the deeply penetrating eyes of the Lord burning into the depths of man’s depravity would suffice!

      Either way, the Lord shall truly be vindicated by His righteous judgments!  We are told that there is mercy in the judgments of God.  Perhaps this is why there is no complete destruction of the human spirit!?

      Though many would desire annihilation rather than to suffer throughout eternity.  God is demonstrating His mercies!

      TR

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    • #4480
      Geri7
      Blocked

      Looks like many unsaved will try to plead with their “good works”  at the Great White Throne Judgement.  Trying to be “worthy in their own good works” wont save them … only the blood of Jesus washes away our sins and they failed in accepting Jesus as their own personal Savior.

      Matthew 7:21-23

      21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

      22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

      23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

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    • #4484
      tenderreed
      Participant

      I also hinted at the belief that some maintain in the phenomenon called annihilation!

      Many believers I have run into over the years including pastors, have expressed a belief that at some point in time God in his mercy will forever annihilate the wicked.  Thereby ending their eternal states of punishment.

      Back in the 80’s and 90’s this was a topic which sometimes surfaced.  Haven’t heard much lately on the subject.

      I could never understand the basis of this belief scripturally, but it came to mind this morning.  Has anyone else dealt with this proposition?  Just curious!

      Another day closer to our redemption! :yahoo:

      TR

       

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      • #4486
        Geri7
        Blocked

        I have come across some unsaved people that want to be cremated because they feel that will stop them from being resurrected and judged by God.  Another person said they believe in reincarnation and plans to come back as a cat. :wacko:

        Then I saw a youtube recently about this lady who had cancer … she requested her body to be frozen in this freezer tube because the company “claims” they will someday have the “fountain of youth” and “cure for cancer”and can give her quality of life back again.  She also forced her husband to sign papers for him to do the same thing when he gets sick …. to be placed on ice.  Get this … they gave a lot of money to this company with instructions of when to revive them, etc.   Meanwhile the mad scientist drilled holes in her brain and removed all her blood and claims she is in suspension.  What gets me is … if “suppose they were able to revive her again” … what happens if there was a power failure during the timeframe she was placed on ice? Also will the company honor her request?  Suppose the company goes south and files for Chapter 11?  Plus the mad scientists in that facility could retire or die and her “request” never get fulfilled by the new workers.  Its sad how people will place their trust in this crazy scheme and not in the Lord Jesus, who promises not only a brand new glorified body but heaven!

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    • #4489
      Geri7
      Blocked

      Did you know this?  I stopped watching David Reagan in 2015 after I read this warning on another forum board.

       

      Libertybelle said

      David Reagan from Christ in Prophecy …

      ”Hell is not eternal and sin doesn’t start until age 13”

      This is not my “local church” but I did not see a normal Apostasy section. Apologies if this is the wrong area, but thought people should know.

      I have not been listening to David Reagan for very long, but was stunned to hear him say that:

      1. We don’t begin sinning until the age of 13.

      2. Hell is a short stint, the length of which is entirely dependent upon how long you were sinning, and how bad your sins were.

      3. After paying for your sins for the appropriate amount of time in short-term Hell, you just go poof, and quit existing. And that is your punishment. And, apparently, what Jesus went through all the trouble of saving you from.

      4. He says re: the AntiChrist & False Prophet “…If these two men can be tormented forever, why not other people who are lost? Well, my response is, the AntiChrist and the False Prophet are two very special cases!…” He goes on to say that they are tormented forever b/c they killed more people than anyone ever, or, option #2, that they are demons, which is what eternal punishment exists for.

      I don’t know if this is normal for him, or not. From the short time I have been listening to him, I’m shocked to hear him say these things.

      -Fair use for information and discussion purposes-

      ———-

      Note:  you can google the youtube its called “The reality of hell” from Christ in Prophecy …. its about 28:31 minutes long.

       

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    • #4494
      tenderreed
      Participant

      The idea that sin doesn’t start or count until 13 yrs old attempts to address the issue of “accountability”!

      Some speculate that to be anywhere from 12 to 14 years old.  God is merciful with the youth of our species.

      And apparently this gentleman seems to advocate  annihilation as well.  Rather than immediately after judgment, there seems to be a probationary period before this occurs.

      Thanks for the info, Sis :heart:

      TR

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      • #4496
        Geri7
        Blocked

        Good point  … about David Reagan was addressing the issue of accountability by saying it was age 13.  My mind was on the fact … we are all sinners from birth.  I got a feeling he is using the age of 13 because that is when the Jewish Bar Mitzvah is celebrated.

        Then you have these verses that I think the Lord considers under the age of accountability … 19 and below …

        Exodus 30:14

        Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the LORD.

        Numbers 14:19

        Your bodies will fall in this wilderness—all who were numbered in the census, everyone twenty years of age or older—because you have grumbled against Me.

        ———————-

        I heard some preachers say not all the children will be raptured out.  Yet they believed if a child dies then they will go to heaven.  Talk about confusing their  congregation.  And some teach the children will not get a glorified body at the time of the rapture … they will have to grow up in the millennium and then they get a chance to make their decision.

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    • #4498
      Blake7
      Participant

      I’m not sure its a specific age, I was 8 when the Lord entered my life, and my life changed. Every child matures at different rates and once they hear the gospel and are able to make their mind up to accept or reject it, well I believe it may be different not a fixed age. I know for a fact by the age of 13 I was well beyond accepting the Lord in my life.

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      • #4501
        Geri7
        Blocked

        Ditto … I was the same age.

        I agree … each child develops at a different pace.

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    • #4500
      tenderreed
      Participant

      Even babes can know and naturally love the Lord.  But the point in time when the Lord will hold children accountable for their sins.  I believe that it is 12 yrs of age when Jewish sages accept that children should be held accountable before the Lord, IE: Bar mitsvah.

      I’m sure that many who have understood the goodness of God and His forgiveness, have entertained the idea of annihilation rather than eternal damnation.  We know that this cannot be the case with demons!

      But the promise of Hell as an eternal state we are all well familiar with.  Whether there is room for an escape clause for humans apparently can be argued.  But to my knowledge it is not so specified in the scriptures.  Indeed this may be something the Lord might address at some time in the future?!

      But apparently on the basis of an eternal Hell, people have made their decisions to receive Christ, or rebel!  I personally am not opposed to the idea!  But I couldn’t begin to second guess the Lord, or His heart on the matter!

      TR

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    • #4502
      Blake7
      Participant

      Do not get me wrong, I hope all children go to heaven. I also know for a fact the Holy Spirit entered my life at 8, I stop using the Lords name in vain in my life My life changed drasticly  I had a reoccurring dream I was in my basement I heard lots of noise if I looked it was Satan. this happened several times till in my dream I keep saying God is stronger, I did not look and the dreams ended that night.  Just my story, my life was much better.

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    • #4507
      David W. Roche
      Moderator

      Okay, so if you’re an annihilationist, you must believe that after a sinner dies and the body returns to dust, God will raise up from the dead those who rejected Him, and then annihilate them in the lake of fire.  What purpose would that serve?  They’re already gone.  And if their spirits are to cease existing, why not do that at the point of death?

      I’m having trouble understanding that line of thinking.

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      • #4509
        Geri7
        Blocked

        Yep, the annihilationist belief sure sounds oxymoron.  It sounds like they are encouraging people to sin because they won’t be held accountable since their body will eventually cease to exist. :wacko:

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        • #4880
          Do Raymond
          Participant

          Annihilationism is not an oxymoron. It’s scriptural.

          The presumption that annihilation encourages people to sin is simply outrageous.

          We know that there will be a resurrection to judgement, even after the body dies. The concept of annihilation does not give one carte blanche.

          There’s no need to threaten a sinner with burning in unending torment, if the Bible doesn’t say that. In fact, the Bible is being very upfront :

          If we obey God, we will be given eternal life.

          If we don’t follow His ways, no eternal life. The sinner will not get to live in the next life!

          That is why, after they are resurrected & judged accordingly, they will be burnt up. They will perish.

          I believe there will be different degrees of punishment(don’t ask me how), according to the severity of their sins, before they’re terminated completely in the fire.

          Again, we have to realize the gravity of not being handed the opportunity to live forever. It is indeed the most severe punishment. Can you imagine that?

          The million dollar question is, how much do we really want to lay hold of eternal life, after this life is over? Most want their best life now.

      • #4879
        Do Raymond
        Participant

        You shouldn’t have trouble in understanding that line of thinking at all, for the Bible says,

        “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad.” – Romans 2:16

        “Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment” – Heb 9:27

        “The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds. ” – Rev 20:13

        The due process must be meted out : resurrect the wicked dead —-> judge them (let them know their crimes) —-> punishment which ends with annihilation

        If their spirits were to cease existing at the point of death, then step 2, ‘judgment’, would have to be skipped. That would make God unjust.

        You should know this. So i don’t understand the point that you’re trying to get at.

    • #4524
      tenderreed
      Participant

      The dilienation made is man is body, soul and spirit.  When the body dies, his/her soul and spirit still exist.

      Annihilation states that the full trinity of man is destroyed!  The scriptures fully teach that damnation is eternal.  But is this just for demons?!

      Knowing God’s goodness, some people believe that God will ultimately relent and stop eternal damnation for humans.

      But this is a catch 22 for a God who creates and doesn’t un-create!

      I’m sure the argument could easily be made that one day in Hell could seem like an eternity!!!

      TR

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      • #4883
        Do Raymond
        Participant

        On the contrary, man is not made up of a full trinity.

        Look up the term ‘nephesh’.

        “then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.” – Genesis 2:7

        Soul literally means a ‘living being’. The breath given by God.

        That’s it! Not 3 parts. Maybe just 2 parts? Body + Spirit? We usually like to lump both the soul & Spirit into 1 entity. So just lets call it the Spirit then.

        “For the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the other— they all have the same breath. Man has no advantage over the animals, since everything is futile.” – Ecclesiastes 3:19

        That is why, we are made only slightly higher than the animals. Both are given the breath of life. But upon death, the soul no longer exist, since the body also makes up part of the soul, because we stop ‘living’. Also, notice that ‘nephesh’ is never used for plants.

        “…before the dust returns to the ground from which it came, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” – Ecclesiastes 12:7

        The reason why we are made higher than the animals, is because ‘man’ can be imparted with God’s Holy Spirit. This is how to gain eternal life.

        We were never created with immortality.

        Nothing to do with your strange concept of ‘un-create’.

        ” Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can DESTROY both soul and body in hell.” – Matt 10:28

        The above verse is clear that God has the power to terminate everything! That includes the old heavens & earth!

        As much as damnation is eternal, i believe that annihilation is ‘eternal’ in every sense of the word. Being annihilated means you don’t get to ever come back again, isn’t it?

    • #4534
      David W. Roche
      Moderator

      Youngs Literal Translation

      18 and receive the kingdom do the saints of the Most High, and they strengthen the kingdom unto the age, even unto the age of the ages.  Daniel 7:18

      and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.  Revelation 14:11

      If God puts the wicked there, it is because there is no other place in the universe for them.  Neither would the ungodly be at home in the presence of God.

       

      Same expression, different groups.  Why would the saints receive the kingdom for “ages of ages” or eternity, and with the lost have the same words mean “temporarily”?

       

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      • #4540
        Geri7
        Blocked

        Just a small thread jack… any ideas of where the Lake of Fire will be located?

        Will it be the sun since we don’t need it anymore?

        Or the black hole “bottomless pit”?

        Or is it in the center of the earth?

        Or _____?

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        • #4905
          Heidi
          Participant

          Hi Geri,

          those who are not saved are in the centre of the earth now. they will be at the great white throne judgement at the end of the millennium then they will be thrown into the lake of fire. ( I get scared just thinking about these things, how horrific) so I guess the lake of fire could be the black holes or the sun.

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    • #4536
      tenderreed
      Participant

      I’ve also thought the same thing David.  If the Lord keeps His promise for the saints to enjoy the glories of Heaven for eternity, why would He default on His promise of eternal damnation?!

      In a nutshell Annihilationists, seem to be looking for an emotional escape hatch!

      Sadly, those who know the Lord and His ways, should not try to rewrite the scriptures to assuage their injured feelings!

      Again, what sets certain Christians apart from one another is simple IMHO.  Those that accept the Lord on His terms, and those that struggle with Lord and His ways!

      TR

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      • #4882
        Do Raymond
        Participant

        Firstly, i think that we need to establish the premise that only God possesses immortality.

        This is very important. Then it makes it so much easier to understand.

        “He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen”-1 Timothy 6:16

        No one possesses immortality, until His Spirit is given to us.

        Therefore, the unbeliever doesn’t possess immortality. No Holy Spirit, no eternal life. Simple.

        “The soul that sinneth, it shall die. ” – Ezekiel 18:20

        “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not PERISH, but have everlasting life.” – :)

        “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the SECOND death.” – Rev 21:8

        These verses definitely refer to a spiritual death called the 2nd death, because everybody including even Christians, will die a physical death.

        All of us have experienced the death of someone. What does ‘death’ look like to you? The person doesn’t speak, eat, move, etc.

        The deceased simply know nothing. Likewise, when the 2nd death occurs, the individual will also cease to exist, after being resurrected & judged. Death means death. The cessation of life. It can’t mean ‘eternal life’ in hell burning non-stop.

        So, no, God has not ‘defaulted on His promise of eternal damnation’. Just that your definition of ‘eternal’ is very different.

        We were never created with immortality/indestructible spirit. Not even Adam!

        “Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and LIVE FOREVER—” – Gen 3:22

        That’s why an angel had to be assigned to guard the tree.

        “…he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.” – Gen 3:24

        Why even bother guarding the tree, if Adam already possessed immortality in the 1st place?

        “Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? ” – Ezekiel 18:23

        God doesn’t take pleasure in seeing even the unbeliever get destroyed, for life is precious indeed. That is why He sent His Son. But we have the freewill to choose death over eternal life instead.

        There will be many who refuse to follow His way, preferring the broad way. So in His mercy, He will snuff them out.

        I think that you claiming, “Annihilationists, seem to be looking for an emotional escape hatch!” is a bit too far.

        If it’s scriptural, then there’s absolutely nothing wrong with the concept of annihilation. Sometimes, it’s very hard to give up long-held doctrines.

        For instance, consider these 4 verses:

        “It will not be quenched— day or night. Its smoke will ascend FOREVER. From generation to generation it will lie desolate; no one will ever pass through it again.” – Isaiah 34:10

        “And again they shouted:

        “Hallelujah!
        The smoke from her goes up for EVER & EVER.” – Rev 19:3 (Babylon reference)

        “Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of ETERNAL fire.” – Jude X:XX

        So, are the fires still burning today in these cities after a lapse of a few thousand years?

        “And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.” – Mal 4:3

        The above verse is the most damning. The righteous shall walk over ashes. Ashes are their residual.

        Something to ponder : Which is the worst punishment?

        20 years incarceration? Life-time imprisonment? Or the death penalty? Which would you prefer?

        I’m sure you’ll agree that termination of life is the worst form of punishment! Your right to live, has been taken away from you.

        You said, “…those that struggle with the Lord and His ways!”

        In all honesty, I would actually struggle very much if annihilation wasn’t the Lord’s way!

        Even as fallen men, our courts of law, dish out punishment in proportion to the crime committed. What more a good God? Would we not expect Him to do the same?

        God is just & fair. This much we agree.

        But burning a person for an infinite period, for crimes committed over a finite period of just 70-80 years, does not reflect the true nature of a loving God.

        You are in effect, attacking the very character of God & misrepresenting Him unfairly. You portray a different God to the world. A sadistic & cruel God.

        Nothing like the loving God who would even die for us on a tree, so that we may get to live!

        Sadly, most miss the point.

        A prison is called a ‘correctional facility’. Why? Because it’s for the purpose of rehabilitation.

        What is the point, of punishing a person on & on without end, & without the possibility of regaining freedom in the future? Is it for corrective purposes?

        Annihilation = eternal punishment. The termination of existence is eternal in its consequence. Bible doesn’t say eternal ‘punishing’.

        The wicked will be burned up, not burning forever non-stop in an unquenchable fire.

        “Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power” – 2 Thess 1:9

        Note: destruction is past tense.

        Can you imagine that in contrast to eternal life, an unbeliever/sinner is not afforded the opportunity to live on? Their chance at ‘living’ is forfeited forever.

        Never again will they be eating, drinking, enjoying, laughing, playing, learning, etc.

        What can be worse than that?!

        As for you saying, ‘should not try to rewrite the scriptures to assuage their injured feelings!’ & ‘what sets certain Christians apart from one another is simple IMHO. Those that accept the Lord on His terms, and those that STRUGGLE…’

        Errm…..

    • #4885
      David W. Roche
      Moderator

      Annihilation makes no sense.  We are told there IS a resurrection of the ungodly.  It defies logic to have a person resurrected, face judgment, be cast into the lake of fire and then cease to exist in body, soul and spirit.  They would be no reason for them to be resurrected unless they were  meant to endure forever in that body.

      Do Raymond wrote:

      [quote]Bible doesn’t say eternal ‘punishing’. [/quote]

      10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.  Revelation 14:10-11

      Sounds like that’s what it’s saying to me.

      I understand the emotional appeal of annihilationism.  However, that is just not what the text says.  I also understand the attempts to mitigate the language used.  It’s still perfectly clear as it reads.  No cessation of existence.

      http://www.tektonics.org/af/annix.php

       

       

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    • #4887
      tenderreed
      Participant

      I agree!

      TR

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    • #4888
      Tammie
      Participant

      One thing is for certain, those of us who know Christ as savior will see the finality of God’s wrath poured on the unbelievers, those who reject God’s perfect atonement through the blood of Christ.

      Luke 16:23-26 clearly defines the eternality of everlasting torment in the flames.

      Prior to my acceptance of Christ death to pay the penalty of my sin nature at the age of 16, I would have horrific nightmares nightly of death, dying, fire, and pain. When I received Christ, those nightmares ended and have never returned. The love of God is so unfathomable for His children, we are so precious to Him. It is hard to envision the wrath to come for those that reject God. He does show righteous wrath, just read the exodus from Egypt or the Book of the Kings. The story of Ahab and Jezabel is gruesome on how much they changed the culture of Israel, causing sin through pagan worship.  I dare say for them and many like them a non existent state would be merciful for their deeds of evil. :-(

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    • #4929
      Tammie
      Participant

      Last thought on this topic from me, the soul of every human being born, past, present, and future is considered eternal. The soul will not parish. God implanted eternity into their hearts. Ecc. 3:11 “He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, He has put eternity into mans heart, yet so that he  cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.”  Another of my fav memory verses is Psalm 139 see verses 13-16 and Gen 9:6 states that we are made in the image of God (eternal). There are many more verses that talk about the immortality of the soul of man.  By our own free will WE choose eternal damnation or eternal life. I personally, by the Grace of God have chosen eternal life through the Blood of the Lamb, God’s perfect and required redemption for the souls of man. Not that I deserve it, but because He gave it. The redemptive work of God begins in Genesis and you see it all the way the Revelation 22:21 per our modern chapter and verse divisions. :prayer-hands:

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