March 23, 2020 at 1:11 pm #12379
I often quip to people, “If you think you heard me say something serious, you were probably mistaken.” However, here is a non-frivolous concern I had relative to the video I just bought, “Before the Wrath.” The theme is about Galilean weddings in Jesus’ day, and how the patterns of that process fit precisely into the Church’s role as the Bride of the Lamb.
I enjoyed it, but for one segment I experienced troubling cognitive dissonance. The message included the idea that only those with oil in their lamps, i.e. half the ten virgins parable in Matthew 25, would be allowed into the Wedding Supper of the Lamb. The troublesome segment, started at 57:20 into the video and lasted for two minutes. The conclusion was that to go in the Rapture you must have enough oil. Also in the segment as an argument-supporting indicator, was that today’s church is declining – which is to me a separate issue, although true. It does not bolster their insufficient oil proposal.
Jack Hibbs in the video stated that this oil (Spirit) insufficiency issue is key. He made a brief supporting allusion to Luke 8:13, (the seed having landed on hard ground and so fell away), to argue a possibility that believers not maintaining a supply of oil before the Lamb comes for the Bride in the Rapture, could find themselves shut out.
But I strongly contend our assurance about going in the Rapture does not include being careful that we live so as to have enough Holy Spirit “oil.” If we have faith in Jesus’ sacrifice as payment for our own personal sins, we have the Holy Spirit. Sufficient!
This video segment significantly misleads unaware viewers in my opinion. It might motivate some viewers to seek God more seriously, and I suspect this is why this segment is even in the video, but it’s just not right. The “Wedding Supper of the Lamb,” which we believers, i.e., the Bride, participate in, occurs post-Rapture in heaven during the Tribulation. The Wedding Banquet though, mentioned in Matthew 25, occurs here on earth after the second coming of Jesus with us at His side – His Bride.
The message must be intentional in the video, though, and the eschatology of the creators of the film and the narrators too must be just as they portray. In the spirit of “non-essentials liberty and in all things Charity,” I’m not intending to throw out the nice baby along with the bath water. I really liked the video and I connected with other things with “Yes!” kinds of reactions.
I’m not the only one who thinks there are two wedding related events, by the way. I offer here three links to Jack Kelley’s website gracethrufaith.com, which bolster my own view of the Matthew 25 parable.
March 23, 2020 at 2:04 pm #12384TammieParticipant
MyWhiteStone, I did see and hear that part, and had a moment of “what” but I m aware of Gods truth so moved on, but certainly it can cause some to be unsure, not knowing truth!
i appreciate your links. I wonder if we can email Brent Miller with the concern. It may be something they overlooked without intent.
I loved the correlation to the church covenant!
March 23, 2020 at 3:11 pm #12388
I don’t know, Tammie. I suspect they may have thought about it and gone ahead. I wouldn’t initiate a message. Anyway it cannot be changed now.
As for Yohanan, your question below reminds me of, “…Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?” I honestly liked the video, and as I’d said I connected with other themes with “Yes!” kinds of reactions. I really liked the analogy’s tie points brought out relative to the wedding contract, it’s acceptance, the preparing a place, … our flying away in the Rapture, and so much more. I’d recommend it.
March 23, 2020 at 2:25 pm #12386YohananModerator
March 23, 2020 at 2:33 pm #12387LozParticipant
I just watched this yesterday and agree with you MyWhiteStone.
I enjoyed the video otherwise, maybe, like their first video, it’s not aimed at the layman believer in Jesus, much as when I was a baby, baby, Christian, the belief was that Matthew 24 related to the Church, although it does have parallels.
From various discussions, studies, etc, I’ve come to see that it is primarily a description of the Tribulation directed to the Jewish people. The Rapture is described as a mystery in the Bible as told by Paul.
Matthew 24 KJV
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Genesis 7 KJV
7 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
March 23, 2020 at 4:12 pm #12391reginaParticipant
March 23, 2020 at 4:25 pm #12392
March 23, 2020 at 7:41 pm #12419TxThomModerator
I am disappointed with Jack Hibbs if he missed that “they who were foolish having taken their lamps, did not take with themselves oil;” [YLT] Some of the modern paraphrase translations do indeed say “didn’t take enough oil”, but that isn’t what the actual scripture says. They had No Oil. Nada. None. They brought wicks, but no wax for the candle.
Interesting, the NET translation also says extra oil. But in their foot note they note: “tn The word “extra” is not in the Greek text but is implied. The point is that the five foolish virgins had only the oil in their lamps, but took along no extra supply from which to replenish them. This is clear from v. 8, where the lamps of the foolish virgins are going out because they are running out of oil.”
There were two main types of lamps in those days. Table lamps you’d leave on, well, tables. And Torchieres you’d use for processions. Think “Olympic torch”. They were basically bowls on a staff that you’d put a rag in on top, and put in some oil so you could carry it around and see while walking in the dark, rather than sitting around at a table and eat. You’d need to carry the oil in a separate flask, which is exactly what the “wise virgins” did. Cause you’d have to be a fool to bring a torch and a rag to light on fire, but no fuel to sustain the flame. Which is exactly what the actual text says was the problem.
Not to mention that bigger theological issue that oil is usually used as being symbolic of the Holy Spirit. Who is not a commodity, but a Person. You don’t “run out of the Holy Spirit”, although you can ignore Him.
March 23, 2020 at 9:19 pm #12424Watchman35Participant
This is why being a teacher is such a sobering thing imho. You can really mess people up, whether intentionally/knowingly or not. In the handful of times that my pastor has asked me to pinch-preach for him over the past 3-4 years, one of the things I always pray, and sometimes even from the pulpit, is for the Lord to protect His people from anything that I might speak in error, even if unintentional. It is such a huge responsibility to represent God in a public way…it’s hard enough just to walk it out as one of the “commoners” like me.
I think the Lord may be prompting me to share one of those messages. I will start a new thread and post one there.
March 23, 2020 at 9:54 pm #12431
My more important (IMHO) point, Thom, is not that the oil is not representative of the Holy Spirit, nor anything relative to the oil and Ten Virgins parable — except to insist that these ten sleepy virgins can neither attend nor be the Bride. Cannot! For several reasons. Truly as depicted in the video, the Father may tell His Son, “Go get your Bride,” but it doesn’t result in a midnight call to wise and foolish virgins as portrayed in the video, half of whom get shut out and the other half attend the Wedding Supper of the Lamb (in heaven). Instead, the Father’s order “Son, go get your Bride,” results in an immediate Resurrection / Rapture event in the twinkling of an eye. Then later that Wedding Supper of the Lamb as portrayed will occur in heaven. Then much later, about seven or so years, the Wedding Banquet referred to in that parable — Matthew 25 — occurs. To me this is what would be most consistent, and also probably most enlightening to many believers, i.e., to depict and narrate that there are two separate events. Again it’s only IMHO, (hopefully not IMPO).
March 23, 2020 at 9:56 pm #12432tenderreedParticipant
Indeed. A prayer that I have rehearsed in my mind’s eye is for the Lord to stop the ears of hearing anything that comes from me. And ask the Lord to cause them to hear only His word.
Not that I do any formal preaching, but for everything that comes out of my mouth, or what might come from the ink that I write with!
And if I ever enter into a blatant confrontation, my prayer would be a “fleece” prayer asking the Lord to decide between me and someone else. Praying that the Lord strike whoever is wrong with three days of blindness and muteness. Either me or the other person!
But that’s just how I would roll, push come to shove. Point being, it would be made clear that the Lord makes that decision!
March 24, 2020 at 5:23 am #12444Watchman35Participant
March 24, 2020 at 9:31 am #12453Geri7Participant
Wow, nice find, Watchman!
Amazing explanation … this is the best I’ve heard so far. Plus he adds about the controversial subject of “no man knows the day or hour” and that it pertains to the 2nd Coming event and not the rapture. Amazing how some words were left out from the original text and that “Jesus comes back with His bride” during the parable of the 10 virgins and the marriage feast is on earth in the kingdom and only 5 of those virgins are let into the feast banquet hall. And his take on how the Bema seat will be.
The only thing I disagree with Pastor Tim on is … at the end he says he believes more Jews will get saved than Gentiles because its the Time of Jacob’s Trouble. I’m not so sure of that because its only 1/3 of the Jews that will have their eyes open and it says here in Revelation 7:9 …
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
The question then is … after the rapture … wouldn’t all the Jews have returned to Israel for safety and then mid point the 1/3 to Petra?
March 24, 2020 at 10:22 am #12456reginaParticipant
[ נ Nun ] Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path.
maybe those virgins had the word of God, but they were not really living in faith in God’s word, so when the Bridegroom returns, they are without “oil”.
If a person does not believe what God says, when they read or hear it, they are not profited by it because they are not allowing God’s word to guide them.
They have God’s word from the bible or from word of mouth teaching, but without it burning, light, sufficiency to do the role of being ready to go into the wedding celebration.
2Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
March 24, 2020 at 1:05 pm #12457David W. RocheModerator
One thing to keep in view is that it is a parable, not an allegory. A parable’s purpose is to highlight a central point, not that every detail represents something symbolic. For example, is the number 10 significant? Is the oil representing the Holy Spirit? Or is the chief meaning that we should be ready for the event, lest we be shut out?
I also view it as pertaining to the end of the tribulation, and not for the Church.
March 24, 2020 at 9:02 pm #12469tenderreedParticipant
Indeed, I agree with the conventional wisdom of interpretation for this parable. That said, I can’t help but think that out there in the great some where their might at least be the possibility of a double entendre. Or a dual application as God is very good at this sort of thing, IMHO.
In any event, God will be discriminate and just with whom He will allow into His home!
But whether it be 5 virgins out of ten, or two asleep or at the grinding wheel the concept of 50% does seem to reappear. At least in language and metaphorically, if not in meaning. Can two walk together except they be agreed. Two witnesses to confirm a matter. The one flesh is made of two parts, etc! Just saying.
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