The Proof is exciting ~~ Pre trib rapture ~~

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    • #10358
      DonnaDonna
      Moderator

       

      Matthew 24:29-31 is the hands down favorite passage of Pretribulation Rapture deniers, yet contained in those passages is the very proof that the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming are two separate events

      The Bible gives Christians in the Church Age a clear command to study the word of God. Not only that, we are also commanded to ‘rightly divide’ what we read there. There are 3 groups in the Bible that God can be talking to any any given time, they are not the same. First you have the Jews and Israel as one group, the redeemed Church as the second group, and the unsaved gentiles which make up the rest of the gentiles ~

      #1. THE 24 ELDERS ARE WEARING THEIR CROWNS BEFORE THE START OF THE TIME OF JACOB’S TROUBLE

      #2. THE BIBLE DOESN’T MENTION A RESURRECTION AT THE SECOND COMING BUT IT DOES FOR THE RAPTURE

      #3. MATTHEW 24 SAYS AT THE SECOND COMING THE WORLD WILL MOURN, BUT PAUL SAYS AT THE RAPTURE IT’S A TIME OF REJOICING

      #4. THE VERY NAME GIVEN TO THE TIME OF GREAT TRIBULATION IS A DIRECT REFERENCE TO NATIONAL ISRAEL AND THE JEWS

      #5. AT THE TIME OF THE SECOND COMING, JESUS RETURNS FROM A WEDDING

      #6. THE TWO OPENINGS OF THE DOOR IN HEAVEN

      #7. THE DAY OF THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH IS UNKNOWN WHILE THE DAY THE LORD RETURNS AT THE SECOND COMING IS MENTIONED SPECIFICALLY

      #8. THE LORD RETURNS TO THE EARTH WITH HIS CHURCH NOT FOR HIS CHURCH

      #9. THE MARRIAGE SUPPER OF THE LAMB HAPPENS IN HEAVEN BEFORE THE SECOND COMING

      #10. AS IT WAS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH AND LOT SO SHALL IT BE IN THE END TIMES

      https://www.nowtheendbegins.com/more-undisputable-proofs-pretribulation-rapture-church-jesus-christ/?fbclid=IwAR2wKm_fYyQogJ2HPhV-IR1FjTzKTBPvT-DKV8hVS9tTFK2hoJOl8JNtNPM

      Keep looking up, Jesus is coming to get us soon!

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    • #10362
      tenderreed
      Participant

      Thanks Sis!  Blessings, I love it when anyone talks Rapture!

      TR

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    • #10367
      Geri7
      Participant

      #9 the Marriage Supper of the Lamb … I’ve heard both debates some feel it occurs in heaven and others believe it happens on the restored earth before the Millennium period begins.  I think they use the theory that the guests (O.T saints) have to have their new glorified body so they can join us eating.  Just wondering which view is correct?  Or is this considered still a mystery?   :feedback

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    • #10368
      MyWhiteStone
      Moderator

      So I suppose the mortals will eat the same things as we immortals do.  That would not be surprising since Jesus, the  Immortal, ate all manner of things including fish, after the Resurrection.  Heavenly bodies must have digestive systems, which would be functional beginning to end I’d guess.  I hope it’s a wedding feast and not a wedding fast.

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      • #10389
        Geri7
        Participant

        Because we are all unique I think we will still carry those same tastes for certain favorite foods, drinks and desserts on the eternal side.  At least with the eternal bodies we don’t have to eat or drink if we don’t want to and can still function and wont get tired.  So if there is the dreaded fish platters only as the main course ((shivers)) I can see some of us having a mini wedding fast of waiting patiently for the side course of salad and fruit platters, cheese/crackers/olive hors d’oeuvres and filling up on the warm loaves of bread/bagels with melted butter or cream cheese.  I would personally be contented with the appetizers and all the sides and then … concentrating on the amazing desserts of jelly donuts, ice cream, cakes, cookies, pastries, candy … sugar overload here we come! :calvin

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    • #10369
      tenderreed
      Participant

      Immortal bodies might lack a digestive system altogether, as food may only be for the palate alone.  It is an immoral body after all!

      Just as we have been told and speculated that fallen fruit simply vanishes.

      TR

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      • #10374
        Geri7
        Participant

        Yep … no rotten fruit left on the ground.  And how about when picking flowers from the gardens to put in a vase in our dwelling place … the bouquet of flowers will probably never die!

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    • #10370
      tenderreed
      Participant

      Death and decay are just simply eliminated in heaven, are they not?!

      TR

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    • #10385
      David W. Roche
      Moderator

      #7. THE DAY OF THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH IS UNKNOWN WHILE THE DAY THE LORD RETURNS AT THE SECOND COMING IS MENTIONED SPECIFICALLY

      In Daniel and Revelation, we are given countdown days.  That only makes sense if there is a knowable event (the end of the Tribulation) at the end.  Yet at this point, that date is not apparent.  Therefore, we have an event coming at an unknown time (the rapture), followed by the timing of a then knowable event, which is the end of the Tribulation.  To me, it seems obvious the rapture has to come before the Tribulation can begin.

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    • #10386
      David W. Roche
      Moderator

      Geri: [quote]#9 the Marriage Supper of the Lamb … I’ve heard both debates some feel it occurs in heaven and others believe it happens on the restored earth before the Millennium period begins. I think they use the theory that the guests (O.T saints) have to have their new glorified body so they can join us eating. Just wondering which view is correct? Or is this considered still a mystery? [/quote]

      If we follow the pattern of a Jewish wedding, the couple go away for seven days and then the reception is held upon their return.  That leads me to think the Wedding Supper is held on earth, not in heaven, although it may have been announced there.

      https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/related-topics/the-jewish-wedding-analogy.html

      When will the Old Testament saints be resurrected?

      [quote]

      According to Daniel 12:12 (quoted above), it seems like the Old Testament saints will be resurrected approximately a month or two after Jesus Christ returns. Verse 13 leads me to conclude that they will be resurrected at the very end of those days listed, and that would be the 75-day mark, or 1335 days after the Antichrist defiled the temple. Generally speaking, the Old Testament saints, such as Daniel, will be resurrected after the seven-year Tribulation, after Jesus Christ returns to Earth at His Second Coming.

      [/quote]

      I can’t be dogmatic about this, but I think it’s a reasonable explanation that the OT believers are resurrected some time after Christ and the Church have returned to earth.

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    • #10387
      David W. Roche
      Moderator

      MyWhiteStone [quote]So I suppose the mortals will eat the same things as we immortals do. That would not be surprising since Jesus, the Immortal, ate all manner of things including fish, after the Resurrection. Heavenly bodies must have digestive systems, which would be functional beginning to end I’d guess. I hope it’s a wedding feast and not a wedding fast. [/quote]

      tenderreed [quote]Immortal bodies might lack a digestive system altogether, as food may only be for the palate alone. It is an [immortal] body after all!
      Just as we have been told and speculated that fallen fruit simply vanishes.
      [/quote]

      Interesting question there, and I have at times wondered how that all operates.  I don’t really know.

      I agree that Jesus ate normally following the resurrection.  The issue of what happens to the food after consumption in an immortal body remains unanswered.  I doubt the normal processes resulting in waste elimination apply, but that’s something we’ll have to find out when we get there.

      Think of all that has to take place for us to enjoy and ingest food.  We smell the flavor, our mouth waters in anticipation of our appetite being satisfied, we feel the temperature on our tongue and in our throat, and we eat until we are full.  In this body, there are also some negative effects upon us, at times.  We don’t always digest things well, and things can be expelled from us.  Do those things apply in a resurrected body?  Who really knows.  But the total enjoyment of food and drink involves more than just the sensation of tasting.  Just musing, that’s all.

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    • #10388
      MyWhiteStone
      Moderator

      Well, David, the blessed taste of chocolate is sure to remain way ahead of whatever ends up being in second place.  Maybe people who don’t like chocolate are under a culinary curse…  :whistle: :unsure: :yes:

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    • #10390
      tenderreed
      Participant

      LOL Dan!   That explains why so many of us are goofy!  Indeed, this like many others will be God’s little surprises for us!  I refuse to be to dogmatic about what hasn’t yet been experienced or revealed!

      TR

       

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    • #10454
      Geri7
      Participant

      Here’s a fascinating article about the last supper and the customs back then.  They weren’t sitting at a normal table with chairs but were lounging on the floor eating.  Anybody worrying that the Marriage Feast will be the same? :scratch:   Also I was surprised to learn that Judas was considered the “Guest of Honor” so no wonder the disciples over looked him and couldn’t figure out the clue Jesus gave of who would betray Him.

      The Last Supper: Who Sat Where?
      By Bill Perkins

      Most Christians are familiar with the famous Leonardo Da Vinci painting of Jesus and His 12 disciples at the Last Supper. Jesus is seated in the middle of the table and six guests on each side of Him. Unfortunately, that is completely wrong! Here’s why…

      By Jim Fleming

      The Type of Table

      In Jesus’ time, the tables were much different than we see today. The main difference is the fact that usually no chairs were used. During the Roman empire, most banquets were held in a “triclinium.” A triclinium was a room equipped with a table that was six to ten inches high and set up in a U-shaped (see drawing below) Configuration. The guests would recline along the outside edge on cushions, while the servants would serve the food from the empty space in the center of the tables. Ancient Roman pictures of tricliniums always depict that the guests reclined on their left elbow and ate with their right hand. Therefore everyone faced the same direction.

      In Israel in Jesus’ time, most meals would have been eaten sitting on the floor, legs crossed, gathered around one dipping bowl which was shared among everyone. However, the pharisees insisted that every Jew, no matter how poor, had to eat at least one meal a year lying down like the rich, and that was the Passover. The host would need special furniture for the meal because he would have guests as well. At least 10 men had to eat every lamb, according to the pharisees, because there were so many people coming to Jerusalem that there wouldn’t be time to sacrifice so many lambs unless they were shared.

      And He sent Peter and John, saying, “Go and prepare the Passover for us, that we may eat it.” And they said to Him, “Where do You want us to prepare it?” And He said to them, “Behold, when you have entered the city, a man will meet you carrying a pitcher of water; follow him in to the house that he enters. Ans you shall say to the owner of the house, ‘The Teacher says to you, ‘Where is the guest room in which I may eat the Passover with My disciples?” And he will show you a large, furnished, upper room; prepare it there.” And they departed and found [everything] just as He had told them; and they prepared the Passover. And when the hour had come He reclined [at the table], and the apostles with Him. Luke 22:8-14

      The Last Supper took place during Passover, so when Jesus sent John and Peter to make the preparations for their Passover dinner, He told them that they would find a “furnished” upper room. The word “furnished” is the same word that Josephus used to describe the triclinium. Archaeologists today have also confirmed this U-shaped table configuration and have found many evidences of reclining tables being used in the time of Jesus.

      Now one of the Pharisees was requesting Him to dine with him. And He entered the Pharisee’s house, and reclined [at the table]. And behold, there was a woman in the city who was a sinner; and when she learned that He was reclining [at the table] in the Pharisee’s house, she brought an alabaster vial of perfume, and standing behind [Him] at His feet, weeping, she began to wet His feet with her tears, and kept wiping them with the hair of her head, and kissing His feet, and anointing them with the perfume. Luke 7:36-38

      The woman in Luke 7 was washing Jesus’ feet with her tears while He was at a meal in the home of a Pharisee. By understanding the triclinuim arrangement, it’s much easier to see how someone could wash feet during dinner-she wouldn’t have to be under the table!

      Who would be seated where?

      And there arose also a dispute among them [as to] which one of them was regarded to be the greatest. And He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called ‘Benefactors.’ But not so with you, but let him who is the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as the servant. For who is greater, the one who reclines [at the table,] or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines [at the table]? But I am among you as the one who serves. Luke 22:24-27

      Luke gives us valuable information as to who sat where. the disciples were having an argument as to who was the greatest as they came into the room. This was because these tables all had a seating order indication the importance or rank of the guests. There was a specific place for the most important guest to sit and a place for the least important guest.

      At triclinium, the two most important guests were seated on either side of the host. In this case, Jesus was the host as He had invited the disciples to dinner. The host is always seated in the number two position on the left front wing of the table (see drawing). The guest of honor would sit on his left and the next most important guest would be seated to his right. The third most important guest would be seated to the left of the guest of honor, the fourth most important to his left, and so on, continuing clockwise around the U-shaped table to the least important guest on the far right (see drawing).

      And He {began} speaking a parable to the invited guests when He noticed how they had been picking out the places of honor [at the table]; saying to them, “When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, lest someone more distinguished than you may have been invited by him, and he who invited you both shall come and say to you, ‘Give place to this man,’ and then in disgrace you proceed to occupy the last place. But when you are invited, go and recline at the last place, so that when the one who has invited you comes, he may say to you, ‘Friend, move up higher’; then you will have honor in the sight of all who are at the table with you. Luke 14:7-10

      Here Jesus was referring to the reclining table seating arrangement and indicates that the disciples were familiar with specific seating protocol. Since Jesus was the host, you can determine who was reclining to His right and left side from the clues in the gospel narratives.

      Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following {them;} the one who also had leaned back on His breast at the supper, and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?’ John 21:20

      If John leans on Jesus’ chest, it means that John was seated directly to Jesus’ right in the #3 position (see drawing) at the end of the left wing. When John spoke to Jesus, he simply leaned back on His chest. And that’s what John did when he asked Jesus who was going to betray Him.

      On the left side of Jesus would have been Judas, interestingly, reclining in the place of the guest of honor. We know this because Jesus shared his bowl with him at dinner, a customary gesture to the guest of honor.

      And as they were reclining {at the table} and eating, Jesus said, “truly I say to you that one of you will betray Me.” They began to be grieved and to say to Him one by one, “Surely not I?” And He said to them, ,”[It is] one of the twelve, one who dips with Me in the bowl.” Mark 14:18-20.

      Jesus gave a great example of loving your enemies to the very end. If Jesus has John leaning on His chest, then Judas had Jesus leaning on his chest. Let’s just say that the Lord was heavy on his heart that night, in every sense of the word.

      The other position we can reconstruct from scripture is that of Simon Peter. He was located at the end of the table on the right wing, in the position of very least importance.

      John was honored with the coveted “right hand of host” seat because he helped carry everything up to the room to make preparations for dinner. Peter may have also expected to be given the position of the guest of honor since he had worked so hard preparing the Passover dinner for a dozen people. He may have also even taken the seat of least prominence, expecting to be moved up based on Jesus’ teaching to “recline at the last place.” Instead, Jesus gave the position of guest of honor to Judas Iscariot! Judas was probably equally surprised.

      The second evidence that Peter was in the seat of least importance has to do with the announcement Jesus made that He was going to be betrayed by one of His disciples. Peter must have been in the position of least importance or he could not have caught John’s eye. Peter is the only person that John could easily see from his position at Jesus’ right (see drawing).

      When Jesus had said this, He became troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, that one of you will betray Me.” The Disciples {began} looking at one another, at a loss [to know] of which one He was speaking. There was reclining on Jesus’ breast one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore gestured to him, and said to him, “Tell [us] who it is of whom He is speaking.” He, leaning back thus on Jesus’s breast , said to Him, “Lord, who is it?” Jesus therefore answered, “That is the one for whom I shall dip the morsel and give it to him.” So when He had dipped the morsel, He took and gave it to Judas, [the son] of Simon Iscariot. And after the morsel, Satan then entered into him. Jesus therefore said to him, “What you do, do quickly.” Now no one of those reclining [at the table] knew for what purpose He had said this to him. John 13:21-28

      Peter motions to John to ask Jesus who it is that will betray Him. John leans back on Jesus’ chest and quietly tells Jesus that Simon Peter wants to know who is going to betray Him. Jesus answers that it is the disciple sharing a bowl with Him, which would have been Judas.

      The third evidence for Simon Peter’s location is the fact that it is customary for the person in the position of least importance to offer to wash the other guests’ feet. But Jesus took the towel and the basin and washed Peter’s feet! If Peter was in the position of the foot washer, it makes more sense that Peter didn’t want Jesus to wash his feet! Also, with Peter being seated at the end of the row it would have made it easy for Jesus to begin the foot washing with him, illustrating His “greatest shall serve the least” teaching.

      “It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave…” – Matt 20:26-27

      – Fair Use –

       

       

       

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    • #10460
      David W. Roche
      Moderator

      Excellent post, Geri!

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    • #10468
      tenderreed
      Participant

      Yes, thanks Sis!

      TR

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    • #10473
      Yohanan
      Moderator

      I would think that our resurrected bodies would have perfect digestion systems and hence would not produce any waste. Everything would be perfectly digested and used in a way that our sin-filled bodies cannot.

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    • #10489
      Geri7
      Participant

      We know the glorified bodies will NOT contain blood.  I wonder if its replaced with living water and that water will automatically dissolve/soak up any food/drinks we take in?

       

      I Corinthians 15:42-53

      So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

      It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

      It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

      And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

      Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

      The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

      As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

      And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

      Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

      Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

      In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

      For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

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    • #10499
      David W. Roche
      Moderator

      Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God…  1 Corinthians 15:50

      Geri, I can’t say that really conclusively proves a resurrected body will lack blood.  It could be the case, as God can design a body to function however it pleases Him.

      When Jesus appeared to the disciples, He asked them to examine and see that he had flesh and bone, and was not an apparition.  It would make sense not to speak of flesh and blood, as we normally don’t display our blood to others to demonstrate we are solid, rather than an illusion.

      Jesus did say He had flesh, and so the resurrected body will be a body of flesh.  The term “flesh and blood” may simply refer to our mortal bodies, and not necessarily be an indication of what constitutes an immortal one.

      35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.  1 Corinthians 15:35-41

      Don’t misunderstand.  This is not to say you can’t be correct.  I’m simply suggesting that there will be “flesh” in heaven, and there may or may not be blood in the new body.  I don’t think the verse about “flesh and blood” rules out blood any more than it does “flesh.”  : )

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    • #10500
      tenderreed
      Participant

      Then again “flesh” may also be redefined.  As Jesus could walk through walls!  Or take on a form where He was not recognized as easily as flesh might be?!  Does flesh and bone float through air?  Does it defy the laws of gravity?  Is there a difference between spiritual flesh as opposed to physical flesh?  Our spirit bodies will indeed be corporeal.  We will not be like the Father and be spirit only!  Perhaps able to transform from one to the other, or obviously something we have yet to experience.  Can’t be dogmatic in any event.

      In either event, I’m looking forward to all of God’s little surprises.  As you have said there are many types and degrees of glory.

      TR

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    • #10521
      Geri7
      Participant

      T.R. said “As Jesus could walk through walls!”

      Yes!  And proof that our new bodies will do the same is when the trumpet sounds, if we are indoors, we will be flying right through the ceiling and the roof … nothing will stop us from flying away!!!

      I had a flashback because in 2015 I was informing my dementia dad of the prophetic news and about what is happening in Syria and said it won’t be too much longer for Damascus destruction and we were linking it to the rapture event to follow.  So he wanted to sit outdoors on the front lawn and I said why?  He said he didn’t want to get stuck in the ceiling when the trumpet sounded.  Bwahahaha … I had to reassure him that won’t happen!

      David, I got the idea of perhaps there will be no blood in our glorified bodies from a “Robert Breaker -Oct 31st rapture?” youtube.  He mentioned not only our clothes will get left behind but indicated our blood will be left as well.   But like you said its still a mystery … perhaps in the new bodies we will have Jesus’ blood running through our veins or living water or …..?

       

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