What Strengthens Your Conviction of a Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Harpazo?

Home Forums Speculation on Timing of the Rapture or Tribulation What Strengthens Your Conviction of a Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Harpazo?

Viewing 8 reply threads
  • Author
    Posts
    • #1563
      Watchman35
      Participant

      If you are anything like me, there are times when you have to “preach to yourself” in calling to mind the scriptural basis upon which our hope for a Pre-Tribulation rapture is solidly founded.  The drum beat of anti-pre-tribulation sentiment can wear a soul down, whether it comes from sincere (and imho undiscerning) brethren, unregenerate rapture haters who insist on dragging the Bride of Christ through the wrath of the 70th week, or anyone in between.

      So, here is a list of some of the primary reasons I am convinced we will go to the Father’s house to be with our Bridegroom Jesus before the first seal is ever broken:

      1) Dispensational Necessity: the 70th week is about Israel, not the Church.  That’s why the Church moves from earth to heaven in the Book of Revelation from Chapter 3 to Chapter 4.  People who come to faith in Christ after the rapture will not be indwelt by the Holy Spirit like we are today in the age of grace.  Like I’ve heard JD say on more than one occasion, “The purpose of the tribulation is for the salvation of the Jewish nation.”  When the first seal opens, God is turning His attention back to Israel as the Church is removed.

      2) The Overall Structure and Content of the Book of Revelation: the following verses all support a Pre-Trib view of the harpazo.  Rev. 3:10 (kept from the time of testing upon the whole earth), 4:1 (door standing open in heaven with a trumpet saying “Come up here”), 4:4 (24 elders on thrones with crowns and white garments, representing the royal priesthood of all Church-age believers already in heaven before the first seal is even opened), 5:9 (made US to be a kingdom and priests to our God), Rev 6-19 has no mention of the Church while judgment is being poured–because we are not on earth.

      3) Not Destined for Wrath: from the first seal to the last bowl, it is the wrath of God being released directly by our Lord Jesus upon the earth.  We are explicitly told we are not destined for wrath.  Jesus breaks the seals.  Jesus looses the Antichrist as the first seal of judgment on a Christ-hating, unbelieving world.  The AC is God’s wrath, and so is everything else that comes behind that man of lawlessness.

      4) God’s Pattern in Type and Shadow: How our Lord rescues the righteous (our righteousness is in Him, not our own) before pouring out wrath.  Lot comes to mind at the top of my list before Sodom and Gomorrah were completely destroyed.  Far be it from our God to destroy the righteous with the wicked, even if He can only find 10 righteous in the city.  Many other examples could be cited.  Rescuing the righteous is God’s modus operandi.

      5) 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2:  I know not everyone agrees on this, but I think an intelligent, compelling argument can be made for the word “apostasia” being translated as departure, as in physical departure, as in referring to rapture.  With that definition, any debate over the timing of the rapture is eliminated.  I would not recommend building one’s entire eschatological foundation solely on this one point, but it is, in my opinion, another piece of evidence that can be reasonably and credibly argued.

      6) The Model of the Jewish Wedding Tradition: it is amazing how every aspect of the traditional Jewish wedding is embedded with the scriptures in reflecting the relationship between Christ and the Church.  You don’t have to force them to fit the model.  There are just there.  A hidden jewel.  This includes the Bridegroom coming at an unannounced time to “snatch away” his bride, return to his father’s house, and spend a shabua (period of 7) hidden away in the bridal chamber.  If that doesn’t sound like John 14:1-3 and the rapture, then I don’t know what does.

      I am sure others could include additional thoughts and insights, but this is the list I recently came up with when I found my mind slipping a bit in its ability to clearly formulate and express to myself why it is that I believe scripture teaches a pre-tribulation rapture.  Hope this encourages others.  Feel free to add to the list if you have something else that strengthens your conviction we are “harpazoed” before the first seal is opened.

      avataravataravataravataravataravataravataravataravatar
    • #1903
      Yohanan
      Moderator

      I have heard it said that the word “rapture” is not in the Bible. Well, the English word “rapture” isn’t and the Greek Harpazo doesn’t translate to “rapture” per se, though it means the same thing, but the Latin word is much closer to our English “rapture”.

      See the following Latin Vulgate and the ensuing English translation of 1 Thess 4:17

      17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

      17 Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air: and so shall we be always with the Lord.

      :flyup:

      avataravataravataravatar
    • #2215
      2ndcoming
      Blocked

      Paul gave us the order of resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15.

      The Order of Resurrection

      1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

      There are three stages of resurrection.

      First stage:  Christ the firstfruits. It took place on the first fruit in 32 AD.

      Second stage: afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. “they that are Christ’s” is the church since first century to present. We call this event rapture.

      Third stage: Then cometh the end. This event takes place after Christ returns at the end of tribulation, when he delivers the kingdom to his Father. This resurrection shall include the martyred saints from tribulation ( Revelation 20:4 ).

      As Paul has indicated, he believes in pre-tribulation rapture.

      avataravataravataravataravataravataravataravatar
    • #2269
      Watchman35
      Participant

      Excellent addition 2nd Coming.  I will add that one to my own list when I am in need of preaching to myself!:good:

      avataravataravataravataravatar
    • #3007
      gratefulforgrace
      Participant

      WM35 thanks for the encouraging reminders!!  What a blessing to know He will help us through whatever tribulations we must endure while in this life on Earth, but that we will not be here for THE Tribulation- thank the Lord for His mercy and grace for all who will receive it- there is NO condemnation for us in Christ- we WILL NOT face our Heavenly Father’s righteous wrath because His Son took it for us!!! :yahoo:

      avataravataravataravataravataravataravatar
    • #3568
      Hugh
      Participant

      The first reason is that Jesus was very specific in what was going to happen and what we were to do in response. He said, Lk.21 28 Now when these things BEGIN to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” Now that only makes sense when you understand we do not yet have full possession of our redemption because it is kept in heaven awaiting our appearing before the Father.

      Rom.8 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

      So we have redemption in part as a guarantee or promise that this work of God in us will be completed in a specific Day of Redemption

      Eph.4 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 

      So in Part 1 of redemption while here on earth, we have a taster of what is to come…

      Eph.1 In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

      Thanks be to God that Jesus secured this for us and is waiting on us to join Him…

      Heb.9 12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

      Our redemption is part of our inheritance in Christ and we have to go to heaven to receive it…

      3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you. 1 Peter 1:3-4

      It is important that we get the timing correct because there is no excuse for getting confused about what Jesus said. When the signs all begin to appear together, that’s when we are to get excited and lift up our heads. If we were going into the tribulation then Jesus would not have emphasized the signs beginning to appear but rather He would have said, When the great tribulation comes upon you, then lift up your heads.

      God’s work of adoption and redemption of the church in Christ has to be completed in heaven and we have to appear there before the Father to be acknowledged before the angels by Jesus Himself and witnessed by the Holy Spirit.

      So how should we be living seeing the headlines are starting to tick the prophetic boxes?

      Phil.3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.Phil.3:21

      Paul is not speaking figuratively here: he wrote of our being called up to meet Jesus in the air. He wrote of our being transformed in the twinkling of the eye. He wrote of how we should be waiting and watching. This is a real upward call of God to meet Jesus. Look what happened the two witnesses…

      Rev.11:12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

      Look what happened to John… Rev.4:1

      [ The Throne in Heaven ] After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

      If the rapture was to happen at the end of the GT it would break Jesus promise regarding the timing of the Day of Redemption. If the rapture was to happen in the middle of the GT likewise it would break Jesus prophesy. It is only the beginning of the signs that relate to the Day of Redemption and no other order meets that demand.

      Now I must point out that I believe many of the signs are only getting warmed up at the moment and we have a ways to go but the heat is definitely turned up in an amazing way. The next 10 years will be colossal and the next 6 years may finish the timeline for the church because, among other things, the trees are dying. Who understands the relevance of the trees to the rapture?

      • #3571
        Geri7
        Blocked

        I agree with you, Huge, on everything …. but that last paragraph.  LOL   So that is why I can’t press the like.  I strongly believe the church leaves in 2019. :whistle:

        avatar
    • #3572
      Hugh
      Participant

      Yeah I understand Geri. My position is that the signs Jesus gave are not general i.e. they have to be substantially different to what has happened over the centuries so we know that we know as opposed to thinking that we knew and nothing happened.

      For example, there are fewer famines now than there were about 10 yrs plus back but it is one of the signs that must be in our faces. The biggest sign I am looking for is something in the heavens that shocks the world and I believe we are seeing increasing evidence of that hidden event every year in the form of the exponential increase in fireballs and major quakes. There is great debate about something in the heavens tilting our solar system while on earth we hear skyquakes, see sinkholes and great cracks in the earth.

      Something is coming our way to fulfill Jesus words. So until I see the beginning of all these things, I have to keep waiting and watching for them.

       

      • #4084
        GregW
        Participant

        Hugh:  He did give a very time specific sign to Israel.  It is the fig tree parable of Luke 21:29.  In this parable the Fig Tree is the nation of Israel when it returns from the Diaspora exile circa 1948/49.  This generation which witnesses this event is the audience to whom the parable was intended to speak.   It is our generation.  We are speculating that a 70-year period may well be associated with Daniel’s 70th week.  Israel is the “fig tree” and the United Nations is “all the trees”.  The fig tree parable of Luke 13:6-9 explains the nature of the fig tree parable.   God saw Israel’s fathers as “the first ripe in the fig tree at her first time”. (Hosea 9:10)  Fig trees in Israel flower and fruit twice in a year.  Once in the Spring and again later in Summer.  So, in Hosea we see God using the fruit of the Spring fig to represent Israel’s fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  Now, we can extend the imagery to know that “remnant Israel” (Romans 9:27; Isaiah 10:20-22) will be saved during Daniel’s 70th week.  Remnant Israel will be viewed as the fathers’ children bearing fruit at its “second time”.  Beautiful metaphor spanning 4,000 years of history.

    • #4083
      GregW
      Participant

      Watchman35:  As to your point number 5, I believe the word “apostasia” is more appropriately “falling away” because in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Paul begins the discourse with the rapture notation.  He says: “and by our gathering together unto him”.  That is certainly the Resurrection/Rapture event.  It is likened to the Pentecostal pilgrimage feast gathering.  In fact, Paul’s three orders of the first resurrection follow the three pilgrimage feasts of Israel: Christ at First Fruits during the Feast of Unleavened bread, then Christ’s own at his Pentecostal appearance, and then the end at Tabernacles as we see in Revelation 20:4, as correctly noted above by 2ndcoming.

      • #4090
        Watchman35
        Participant

        Hi GregW  Would have to respectfully agree to disagree agreeably on your interpretation of 2 Thes 2.  Andy Woods has a teaching on why his studies have led him to believe that the departure spoken of in this passage refers to a physical departure, not a spiritual one.  He goes over a list of ten reasons that support his view.  You may not end up agreeing after watching, but I encourage you to listen with an open mind (if you have not done so already).  You can go to the 8:30 mark to pick up right where he begins to explain his position and how he got there.

        Again, you might not end up agreeing, but no reasonable person can argue that there is not at least some substantive, credible reasoning that merits earnest consideration of the possibility that the correct translation in context for the Greek word apostasia is departure, as in physical departure, as in rapture of the Church.  If that is what the Lord intended for the passage to convey, as I lean towards in my understanding, the discussion about the timing of the rapture is effectively ended.

        As I said at the beginning of this response.  It may very well be that the best we are going to be able to do on this one is agree to disagree agreeably.  Grace and peace.

         

        • #4143
          GregW
          Participant

          Watchman35:  I am familiar with Wood’s position.  I am not dogmatic on the matter.  I see no reason why the term could not mean both if both events were to occur with a contemporaneous time frame.

          avatar
    • #4088
      GregW
      Participant

      We Are Living in Biblical Times

      We are living in biblical times.  The Bible has more to say about this period  than any other time in history.  There were about fifty (50)  prophecies about the First Advent of Christ.  There are over five hundred (500) prophecies about the Second Advent of Christ.  We are living in the days preceding the Second Advent of Christ.

      Just as in the days of Noah and Lot, the common time theme was that no one believed that judgment was near.  We live on the precipice of the final judgment.  All who herald such precarious times are deemed fools by the secular world fulfilling the scoffer prophecies. (2 Peter 3:3)

      As I continue to consider Israel,  the events of the last 70 years and meditate on the fig tree parables of Scripture,  I see the approaching pattern of impending judgment for Israel and the World.  The common theme of Israel’s minor prophets is the Second Advent of Messiah Jesus.  Hosea speaks about Israel’s founding fathers.  He says, “I saw your fathers as the first ripe in the fig tree at her first time:” (Hosea 9:10b)  The Living Word, speaks throught Hosea,  into the Gospels’ fig tree prophecies.  Israel’s fathers produced good fruit.

      The horticultural aspects of the fig tree speak, in type, to the nation of Israel as a corporate entity in the states of fruitfulness and barreness. The fig tree flowers and fruits twice each year, once on the old wood and again on the new wood.  The fig tree is the only tree in Scripture which was cursed for barreness or the absence of fruit. (Matthew 21:19)  The fig tree had a bad beginning. It is associated with disobedience,  judgment and self-righteousness.  The first usage of the fig tree appears in Genesis 3:7.  It is a symbol of self-righteousness in defiance to the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost.  These three bear record of truth in heaven. (1 John 5:7 KJB only)[1] .  God finds Israel guilty of self-righteousness ultimately for rejecting Jesus.  This is Jacob’s principal transgression. (Jeremiah 24:2, 5, 8; Matthew 24:32-33; Amos 8:2; Hosea 9:10; Isaiah 59:20)  Israel rejected God’s “Sun of righteousness”. (Malachi 4)

      Each year in the Spring, in Israel, the fig tree flowers on its prior years branches.  The flowers appear before the leaves.  The fig tree’s flowers set fruit “at her first time”, then the leaves appear.  Later in the Summer, the fig tree flowers again on the new growth branches and sets fruit a second time.  The fig tree in these parables had no fruit at all. Their barreness reflects corporate Israel’s refusal to recognize Yeshua as Messiah. (Matthew 21, 24; Luke 13, 21; Mark 13).

      If we apply the imagery of this parable to Israel today and follow Jesus’ command to “learn” the parable and to “know” its interpretation we can know “what manner of time” to expect (1) the resurrection/rapture event and (2) the time of Jacob’s trouble or Daniel’s 70th week. (1 Peter 1:11)

      On May 14, 1948 Israel declared Independence as a nation ending the Diaspora exile. (Isaiah 11:11, 66:8; Ezekiel 20:34, 37:1-12)  On May 11, 1949, following her War of Possession or the second Conquest of Canaan, the world, the commonwealth of nations[2], acknowledged Israel as a sovereign nation.[3]  Just as the Lord was with Joshua and Israel in the first Conquest of Canaan, so too, the Lord was with Israel fighting for her in the second Conquest of Canaan.  The “hand of the Lord” established Israel in 1949 following the second conquest of Canaan. (Isaiah 11:11)  We see the Captain of the Host of the Lord fighting for Israel in Joshua 5:13-15. This captain is the King of Glory, the King of Israel. (Psalm 24:10; Isaiah 44:6)  The Lord is a man of war. (Exodus 15:3)  This captain is the Captain of Salvation. (Hebrews 2:10)   He is the Holy One of Israel. (Isaiah 43:15) This captain is the Lord Jesus. (Hebrews 4:8 KJB only; Acts 7:45 KJB only)[4]   A cursory review of the Second Conquest of Canaan and the Arab-Israel Wars of 1948-73 there are numerous miraculous accounts of divine intervention where the King of Glory fought for Israel.  The Captain of Salvation intends to call out His remnant, the remnant of Jacob, who will appropriate the testimony and faith of Jesus during the Time of Jacob’s Trouble, Daniel’s 70th week.

      Israel, as God’s prophetic timepiece, was the fruitless leafy budding of the proverbial “fig tree”.  And Isaiah’s words, spoken more than 2,700 years ago, ring in our ears the truth of God, “And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people…”. (Isaiah 11:11; Ezekiel 20:33-38) The second recovery of Israel is represented by the end of the Diaspora exile in 1948, the first recovery being the 70-year Babylonian exile.  This recovery has been with indignation. (Zechariah 1:12).  This recovery brought the Jew, as a nation, back into the land of Canaan, albeit, in unbelief of Messiah Yeshua.  God says this restoration has been and will be associated with the rod of indignation and fury poured out. (Zechariah 1:12; Ezekiel 20:34; Isaiah 48:10) Israel must endure the coming “time of Jacob’s trouble”. (Jeremiah 30:7)

      Israel has begun the formal process of restoration in preparation for God’s final chapter in the redemption of the Jewish people, a people who will receive Yeshua as Messiah.(Daniel 9:27; Revelation 1-22) Isaiah says that the Lord “set His hand” implementing this second recovery. (Isaiah 11:11) The nation commenced its restoration without flowers or fruit. The restoration of the barren fig tree is in agreement with Ezekiel’s version as the restoration of dry bones constituting the whole house of Israel. (Ezekiel 37)  Jesus had chastised the figurative fig tree of Matthew 21:19, which represented the political nation of Israel in 30 A.D. cursed for failing to recognize her Messiah.  The fig tree was cut down following the lesson of the Fig tree-Vineyard parable of Luke 13:6-9.  The Temple was destroyed and the Jews dispersed. (Daniel 9:26)

      At the first Advent, the Jewish nation was cursed and dispersed for the rejection of Messiah.  At the second Advent, the remnant Jewish nation will receive Jesus and be delivered and saved. (Romans 11:26-27; Isaiah 59:20-21; Romans 9:27; Isaiah 10:21-22; Jeremiah 31:7, 11,31-34; Joel 2)

      Now, in a generational context, we are seventy (70) years from the events of 1949.  It is probable that God began His 70-year countdown toward the last week of Daniel’s 70 Weeks prophecy. (Amos 3:7) We are the generation which will witness the resurrection/rapture event. (1 Corinthians 15:52; 1 Thessalonians 4:17)  Zechariah speaks today of these 70 years of indignation when Israel has had neither rest nor peace. (Zechariah 1:12)  Jesus says the generation which sees the fig tree bud out will see the events of Daniel’s week.

      Only Christ’s own, the members of His body, will be removed prior to Daniel’s week.  The Christ rejecting world will bear the furious wrath of the end of the age judgments, the furnace of affliction, the cup of wrath and indignation. (Jeremiah 25:15-17, 51:7; Psalm 75:8; Zechariah 12:2-3; Habakkuk 2:16; Revelation 16:19)  For all judgment has been committed to the Son of God, Jesus. (John 5:22)

      Following this 70-year period, the prophet Zechariah says that the Temple shall be built. (Zechariah 1:16).  This can only occur after the Lord removes his “living temples”. (1 Corinthians 6:19)   The Temple Institute has completed all preparations for the Tribulation Temple. (Daniel 9:27, 12:11; Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14)

      The remnant Jewish nation of the future will keep the commandments of God and have the faith and testimony of Jesus. (Revelation 12:17, 14:12, 20:4-5) Their faith will save them from the furnace of affliction. (Isaiah 48:10) Jesus will protect them in the days of vengeance. (Daniel 3:25 KJB only[5]; Revelation 12:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:12)  During Daniel’s 70th week, the Fig Tree will flower and fruit on her new year’s growth during the Time of Jacob’s Trouble.

      As the Lord God of Israel said through Hosea, “I saw your fathers as the first ripe in the fig tree at her first time”, so looking forward in the understanding of the doctrine of the restoration of Israel, the parable says, the LORD GOD will see the fathers’ remnant children as the “second ripe in the fig tree at her second time”.

      This is the truth of this parable following  the command to “learn” and “know” the parable of the Fig Tree  and the time of the end.

      Blessings in Christ………Awaiting His appearance this Spring at the Feast of the Harvest.

       

      Post Script:  The KJB represents the “majority text” in the archeological manuscript record.  Ninety-five (95%) percent of all manuscript evidence is contained in the Textus Receptus, Syriac, or Byzantine manuscripts.  All modern bibles published since professors Westcott and Hort’s apostate subversion of 1881 represent the minority text or five (5%) percent of all archeological manuscript evidence.  The minority texts originate from Alexandria and appear in the Alexandrianus, Sinaticus and Vaticanus versions.

      [1] All modern bibles, following the Alexandrian revisers, have deleted this verse from the majority text manuscripts.
      [2] the commonwealth of nations was represented by the United Nations in 1947 and 1949.  The U.N. represents “all the trees” of the Fig Tree parable of Luke 21:29.
      [3] On May 11, 1949, the U.N. admitted Israel as the 59th member.  This event parallels the imagery of the “fig tree” Israel and the U.N., as “all the  trees” of Luke 21:29.
      [4] All modern bibles, products of Alexandrian gnostism, have altered the name of Jesus to Joshua.
      [5] In the KJB, this verse uses the name “Son of God” while the modern bibles following the Alexandrian gnostics altered it to “a son of the gods”.  This alteration, following Satan’s example in Genesis 3, thereby removes the ability to see that it will be the “Son of God”, Jesus, who protects remnant Israel during the Time of Jacob’s Trouble (Revelation s12:6), when Israel will be subject to Isaiah’s “furnace of affliction”.  Daniel’s furnace is a type of future affliction prophecied by Israel’s prophets, affliction which will occur during Daniel’s 70th week.

      avatar
Viewing 8 reply threads
  • The forum ‘Speculation on Timing of the Rapture or Tribulation’ is closed to new topics and replies.

Pin It on Pinterest